126: Your Style Isn’t Your Brand
Michele 00:00
Hello. My name is Michele and you're listening to profit is the choice. With me today is Katie Saunders of Poppin Grey. Katie is a brand strategist and website designer who partners with interior designers to elevate their strategic brand design and messaging, so that their brand presence reflects their style and their story in every unique to tell. Katie is a southern girl. So, get ready for the double Southern accents between the two of us today. We're going to discuss why our style is not our brand, how we start to define a brand and why it matters. Enjoy the podcast.
Michele 00:38
Every day empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company financial health and enjoying the rewards of reduced stress and more creativity. With my background as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses in the interior design, industry, educator, and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to profit as a choice. Hey, Katie, welcome to the podcast.
Katie Sanders 01:10
Hey, thanks for having me.
Michele 01:12
Oh, you're welcome. I am excited to talk to you another Southern girl. So, I'm sure that people will get their fill of Southern conversation today. But I want to tell you just how fun it was for me to virtually meet you through email, and then to hop over to your website and get to know you through that. And I just want to touch on that for a minute. Even before we start with the whole, how did you start your business and all that good stuff. Because I think what was so interesting, I'm going to give you like the consumer view here, right? Okay. And follow each other on Insta, and you sent me some information, I go over and look at your website. And immediately I'm drawn in with your little pop up that says, "Go ahead pin it, you know you want to!" Immediately for me, I'm like, Oh, I like her like this. That's the kind of I don't know, you drew me in you really drew me in. And then as I go through and look at it, even your picture that you have on it, and you know we hear all the time about, be careful what pictures you put on, do you look approachable, right? look fun? You look energetic and you looked like somebody had like, let's go sit down have a cup of coffee. Like I want to chat with you.
Katie Sanders 02:30
That's awesome. And I hope that's accurate.
Michele 02:32
Yeah, no, it is it really is.
Katie Sanders 02:34
That's the goal is to make sure people know kind of what it's like to really meet you in person. Because you know, some people like this is really the only, you know, when they come to your website, right at the beginning, it's like, you need to show them what it's going to be like so that they actually want to meet you.
Michele 02:50
Yeah. So I just I want to just share that with you so that other people can hear as well. Because, you know, you build websites, you help people do this. And the minute I went to yours, it didn't feel harsh, it didn't feel clinical, it felt very relational. And I think that speaks volumes, especially when you're working with interior designers. And what are we all doing? You know, all of us in the home industry stagers, work rooms, whatever role we play within, under that interior design umbrella, we are in a relational and business, we're going to people's homes, we're sitting in their houses, we're talking to them about creating the spaces that they live in. And so, we want the people that are creating our spaces, which is our online store, if you will, which is kind of what our website is that online presence. We want it to be somebody who gets it. And, you know, I know we got a lot to talk about here, but I want you to know, I felt like immediately you got it when I went your website. So, it was kind of cool to hear that feedback. That makes me feel so good. That's awesome. And you know, like, go to Poppin Grey. I mean that. And look at it while you're listening to this.
Katie Sanders 03:56
But yeah, I mean, that's what I tell designers all the time. And I mean, it's true, like design clients are working so intimately with you, they have to want to have a relationship with you. And those tiny little custom things that you can do on your website, just to give them a little hint of what your personality is, like, just goes a long way. Because people hire people, you know, they want to hire somebody that they like. I mean, nobody wants to spend tons of time because they are going to spend tons of time with you regardless. So, nobody wants to spend tons of time with somebody that they don't like, even if they can create a beautiful home.
Michele 04:33
Right, exactly, exactly.
Katie Sanders 04:35
So, it really does help to just, you know, get that right from the get go kind of show them what your personality is like.
Michele 04:41
Yeah, I really liked it. I was like, like, We're best friends already. And I'll chat with you back and forth. Um, start, Katie and just share with us a little bit of your business journey and how you got to where you are today with the business that you currently have.
Katie Sanders 04:58
Yeah, so I think like always It's been kind of a windy road to get where I am now, I went to school for design and journalism. And I started out designing and being a copy editor at newspapers and magazines, and then moved into more of the advertising side. And, and I worked at an architecture firm. That was where I got really interested, I did all of their marketing, and we rebranded the firm while I was there, and I worked really closely with their designers. And that was when I got really interested in working with designers. But I was really on, you know, I was really on the advertising side. And then I worked at an advertising firm, and was there for several years. I eventually left when I had my first daughter, I have two now. I just realized, you know, gosh, like, it was just such a churn and burn industry, or you're working with a million clients at a time and crazy hours, and there was really no, you couldn't like really get super deep with anybody, because it was just so chaotic and busy. And I just realized that I could work with less people, and do a better job and be working with people that, you know, like were really passionate about what they were doing, instead of working with bigger companies where maybe, my contact was not necessarily the person who had built the business, it was their marketing rep. So, you know, it all started when I had my daughter and took my maternity leave and realized that wow, I could really do this by myself. And so, I did. And that was about nine years ago. And, it has evolved over the years. And I, used to do more, a little bit of everything. As the years went by, I niched down a little more every year. And now I'm to the point where I'm just working with interior designers, and I'm just doing full custom branding and custom websites. And that's great. Just gets better every year.
Michele 07:09
So, you know, we'll ask this question, if you've listened to the podcast, were you profitable from the very beginning?
Katie Sanders 07:15
I was super blessed to have a really low overhead from the very beginning, I am, I have always been really stingy with my money and a big saver. And so, I spent as little as possible in the very beginning. So, I have always had some profit. But you know, definitely in a different way. Like it's definitely evolved over the years. And now I definitely spend a lot more to make a lot more and much more intentional on, where I spend that money and costs and all of that.
Michele 07:49
So, what would you say, as your business has grown over the last nine years, if you could pin it down to one or two things that you think have been the most instrumental and helping you be more profitable? You know, a couple of things are that you kind of lessons you've learned? Mm hmm. You know, I mean, my guess honestly, from what you've already said, is that niching down and reducing the fact of you doing every single thing. And, you know, I've already picked up on the fact that you were intentional about your spending. And if everybody knows all about you with intent, you know, be very, very careful. Right? And so those are the two that I picked up just from what you've shared. But what would you say they were?
Katie Sanders 08:33
Yeah, I mean, I would say for sure, what has made a huge difference for me in the last few years has been really niching, down on who I'm working with.
Michele 08:44
Tell me what that means.
Katie Sanders 08:46
So, for me, it means I used to say, I mean, if you would go back maybe four or five years, I worked with all creative entrepreneurs, which, in my head felt very narrow, but in reality.
Michele 09:02
But let's be real, that's already one level of niching down, right.
Katie Sanders 09:06
And that was, you know, from the beginning, that was what I always said, but in reality, almost everyone calls himself a creative entrepreneur. That is they do really almost any small business will tell you, they're a creative entrepreneur. So, I was working with tons of different industries. And some of them you know, I, found like I really enjoyed working with and some of them I didn't. And it just means, you know, when you work in lots of different industries, you have to keep recreating your process. And so, I feel like just working with interior designers has made it has really made my business so much more profitable, because it's like I know exactly what I have to do every time. My team members know exactly what they have to do every time we have a very structured process. So, it doesn't take any of us extra time to really like sit down and have to research You know where they're coming from? Because we can hit the ground running. So, we save time, which, you know, helps us make more money.
Michele 10:07
Right? You know, it's funny, I've even niched down when I first started. Mine was a little broader, I did the whole creative everything. And what you know, what I have found, has been quite similar, but I even niched down again at the beginning of 2020. And that I've got three basic things that I'm helping people do. And that's build a strong foundation, scale their company, and have full ownership of their financials. That's it, you know, and so if they're not looking for those three things, and they're not ready for those three things, then I'm not the right coach for them.
Katie Sanders 10:43
Yeah, right.
Michele 10:43
But yeah, make sure that the foundation is solid, make sure they have full ownership and understanding to be able to use the financials, and scale meaning just grow, doesn't even mean they got to go build some huge firm. And I found that that, you know, what's been so cool about niching? For me, and I'm curious if it's the same for you, because we have, you know, designers and, and other creatives within the interior design industry who were asking themselves all the time, well, I thought I had niche down. Do I need to niche down further with just a product or service? But what I found is that actually is more exciting for me, some people say that they can get bored. But for me, I don't get bored. When I, I'm going to say narrow what I do and how I do it. What it actually does is allows me to do it better. It allows me to really load it and maximize it. And my number one strength is Maximizer. So, then it allows me to get deeper, deeper, deeper, instead of trying to be all things to all people and I can help you with sales. And I can help you with this. And I can help you with that. And then I hope everybody with nothing, or it's also surface level. Because you said the same thing. Now I got to go stop and try to dig down and understand that industry understand more about it. And it's taking me away from all the other things that I enjoy and love to do. So yeah. And it's hard to do it sometimes to take the step and just kind of draw the line and say, here's what like I don't just do a one off when I consult with people any right, I'll do a discovery call to see if we're fit to work together. But you know, I don't take just the random, hey, I've got a business problem. Can I just talk to you for an hour to solve it? That I don't do that anymore? Right?
Katie Sanders 12:25
Yeah. And I resisted, Oh, my gosh, I resisted niching down for the longest time for exactly what you said, because I'm totally ADD. And I, you know, I'm like, super creative. And I was like, oh, gosh, if I'm only working with one industry, I'm going to get so bored. There's no way I could do that. It's just I need this constant variety and changing things up and jumping from working with photographers, to designers to, you know, video creators, all kinds of stuff. But I realized the same thing as you that you know, it's amazing how in one industry, everyone is so different. Yes. And even if they have very similar styles and what they do, their personality is so different. And working with them is so different. But you know, I really don't need that is the variety.
Michele 13:16
That is the variety? Yes. That's why when people ask me all the time, I say to them, Look, I'm not trying to just like you're not trying to create copy cutter websites, and copycat copy. I'm not trying to create copycat businesses. So, I don't have like the Michele model, and everybody has to work, right? It's trying to find the really cool way to work within their model and their strengths and who they are. Because ultimately, it's the individual that brings their own specialness that makes their design different and wonderful. And that's what also shows up in their brand and then write marketing and what they do. And I remember talking to a photographer one time and I asked her, I said, do you ever have to take pictures of people that you think are not pleasant? She's, she's like, you know, Michele, she's like, every single person has beauty in them, if you can capture it in the right way. And so, it's putting them in the best light so that their beauty comes out. And I thought that was just a beautiful way to express it. And I think that's what you do with words. And with the website, sweat I do and helping them plan their business is what is the most beautiful part of you and have your business and have your story and have your message. And then it's my job to help you put that out in a business forum and help you
Katie Sanders 14:39
Right, yeah, exactly.
Michele 14:41
You put it out in a very visual forum, and in words and branding.
Katie Sanders 14:45
Mm hmm.
Michele 14:47
So, let's jump off of that Katie, kind of into the topic that we're going to talk about today. And that is your styles, not your brand. And you really captured my attention when we started talking about this. Talk to us a little bit about what his style is, what a brand is and why they're not necessarily. I mean, maybe sometimes they could be similar, but how they were other and how they work independently.
Katie Sanders 15:16
Yeah. So, when designers first come to me, I feel like that is the one thing that they're most surprised by. And, you know, they're kind of stuck on at the beginning, well, you know, here's my portfolio, here's what I do, here's why people come to me because they love this look. So obviously, my brand needs to look exactly like that. And they think they're done. And, and a lot of them have done that, you know, in their own DIY brands, or when they started out, you know, everything was based on the style of what they do.
Michele 15:56
When you say the style of what do you mean, like your design aesthetic? Right? Yes. Okay.
Katie Sanders 16:01
Right? Yes. Okay. So, you know, most people will say, Okay, well, you know, the homes I design are typically mid-century modern or traditional, or, you know, Scandinavian or whatever. And, you know, and then they want to make sure that their brand looks exactly like that. Because, because they've never had a strong, effective brand before. And they've learned that it's like, they use their style as a crutch. Because they think that their portfolios, the only thing that sells and until you learn, like how powerful your brain can be, I find that that is, that is usually what where designers begin, you know, they think that every fifth, you know, everyone's going to come to them, because they're going to like their portfolio the best. And, you know, they're going to say, here, you know, I love this home, you did, and I want mine to look exactly like that. But what I try to explain to people when we first start is that, if that's all you do, if that's where you stop, when you're creating your brand, then you're giving people the opportunity to price shop, and to put you in a bucket with a whole bunch of other designers. Because there's only so many different, just overall styles. And, you know, people, consumers are just automatically going to say, Okay, well, this designer, this diner, this diner, they all have kind of similar looks. So, they're going to put you in a bucket with them. And so that's where you end, and that's where your brand ends, then that's all they have to go on. So, you know, you may never even get that discovery call with them. Because, you know, maybe they know what your pricing is, and you're out of their budget, maybe they go to somebody else's website who has a similar style, and they have lots of personality, and they talk about their process. And so, they're going to have a leg up. So, I try to explain to people that it is super important to communicate that style. Because that I mean, that is the work that you do. So, we do want people to know that. But that has to be like the first layer of your brand. And then you have to pull out all this other stuff and figure out, you know, what do you really need to communicate, and make sure that all your visuals and messaging weave together to actually say something rather than just showing them? You know, what, what the homes look like that you design?
Michele 18:23
You know what's so interesting about that is, I mean, I've been in the industry for 20 years, right? I'm moving in the year 21. And I know when I look back at the designs and the window coverings and all the things that we did 20 years ago, you don't see him in houses right now. Yeah, we don't have tab top drapes that you see very often you don't see the heavy swags you don't see all of the you know, multi layered valances with heavy trim all over men, 14 patterns MC right together. So, if I had built my brand back in the day, on that, I would be immediately outdated. Right? And, you know, as it moves forward, and the same thing happens. I mean, think about it, these people that are all farmhouse, these, you know, over the last few years, a lot of them, there's a lot of them. So, if the whole brand was farmhouse and farmhouse goes out of style, they kind of have to reinvent themselves over. And so that is certainly a great reason not to only tie those together.
Katie Sanders 19:31
And it's also important to realize, it is very limiting. And you know, it's just not going to be a timeless brand ever. And it's also important to realize that your brand can kind of grow with you. And if you if you focus on you know, communicating your values and you know what's really important to you as a business owner, and how you run your business and what you know what those clients really need to feel to, you know, start this relationship. With you, that is much less likely to change. And even if it does change, it's usually more of a tweak. And you can refresh your brand to reflect that. Right? Rather than having to scrap it and start over.
Michele 20:12
Yeah, yeah. That's so true. I know. I, went through the branding process back in 2003. And, I mean, here we are 17 years later. And, you know, I've my logo has shifted just a little from Scarlet Thread Interiors to Scarlet Thread Consulting. I've removed the needle that was running through it, but the basics are the same. And then I have updated the words and the messaging, as we've gone along, but it was such a hefty branding experience. When I did it, I worked with a really great gal who had done all of the branding for Chick Fil A. So, it was it was a month process. It was I think that's interesting to people, too. I think sometimes people think they sit down; I think they think they their logo is their brand. Like I don't know that people always understand what the right brand is. And I remember the first time because in 2003, look, the internet wasn't super heavy. I mean, it was out there. We were using it. But you didn't have all these courses on how to build your brand. And what a brand is, we hadn't really been talking about what is your Why? I mean, all of that, that we kind of take for granted. And the conversation today. 20 years ago, was not the conversation. Yeah, absolutely. I remember when I worked with the brand specialist that I worked with, and she came to me. We met multiple times, usually at Chick Fil A, but we met multiple times. And the questions that she asked me were very, um, today, I think we're a little more used to the questions, but they were very deep question. And I remember being surprised thinking, I just wanted a logo. Isn't that my brand? Right? And I'm just serious. I did. Yeah. But I thought, and she's going through all these layers of how I feel and how I want my clients to feel and how I want to be perceived. And I mean, she's just really going through the conversation. And I kept going, why are you asking me just go draw something already, because I didn't get it. And then when it was over, I'll tell you when I knew that my brand was right for me, when she showed it to me and talk to me through it and showed me why each element was selected. It wasn't just a that looks good as a piece of clipart. It was created for me based on what I said and how I wanted things to be structured along with some messaging points and everything else. When she shared it all with me, Katie, I started crying. Right, because it hit me in such an emotional place that felt like it she had fully she got me and the brand that she had created with my input for me fully, um, en-captured I don't even know if that's a word captured. And all that I was feeling and all that I wanted to do and express it.
Katie Sanders 23:15
That's amazing. I mean, that's the goal. That's the goal.
Michele 23:18
And then I was so proud of my brand that I wanted it to be I mean, I remember telling her look, I don't look good in orange. And I don't look good in these colors. So my brand can't have color. Don't look good on me, right. Um, but then I remember being so proud of even the logo and what it represented, wanting to talk about it, and having those points that I could talk about, and kind of the tenets or pillars of the brand or whatever, all the way back then I wanted it on my shirt, I wanted it on my hat, I wanted it on my tote. And I think what shocks me is when I see people that either don't know their brand, outside of the logo, right? That is a component of it, right? You don't know their brand, they don't understand the brand, or they're not proud of their brand. And I'm telling you, that impacts the way we sell it 100% present ourselves, it impacts the confidence that we have when we show up and then that is going to impact our profitability,
Katie Sanders 24:16
It could completely change your business. And that is that is one of the number one things I hear from clients when I check back in with him with them, you know, yeah, six months later, is that they just had no idea how much it was going to change the way they presented everything. Because all of a sudden they feel like what people see really reflects them. And you know, I think a lot of a lot of designers especially, I mean, they're creative people and they're visual people, and their work is beautiful. And a lot of them feel like brand shame, like website shame. You know, it's like they don't want to promote because they know that their work is so much better than what people are seeing online and then when it aligns and it feels good, it's just so much easier to sell
Michele 25:03
So much easier, I always look at it that our website is our online store. And if we are not proud of what we're presenting in our online store, it's kind of like having a brick and mortar, we wouldn't tell anybody to go there. Right? I want to be able to tell somebody, I had a client one time that didn't love her logo didn't love a lot of the branding around it, she wouldn't even put it on the door. And I said to her, there is a reason that you're not out pushing your business, it's because you're not even confident in what you're putting out there visually represent your company for people that have never met you. And I'm telling you, same kind of thing you said, once she kind of went through a branding exercise and kind of figured out who they were and what they were doing and how they were doing it. And here's a visual logo to represent, you know, what we want to have out there is kind of our stamp. It was like, almost like the lights came on. Like there was this excitement again? Yeah, I saw her re-engage in her own business in a way that she didn't even realize she'd been checked out of.
Katie Sanders 26:06
Mm hmm. And it's, you know, it's always so surprising cause I am, it's all mindset. And I am not a mindset person. I, I'm very, like, you know, I want strategy. I don't want all this mindset stuff. But it, it makes such a big difference. And I mean, it really like you just can't.
Michele 26:27
So, one way I like to think about it with my clients as well is the difference between what we know in our head and what we know in our heart. Mm hmm. Right. So, in our head, we're design studio, and we do this type of work. And here's some pictures that represent it. So, we have all the head strategy knowledge. But if we have not taken that mindset work and moved it deep into our heart to a belief system, we act based on what we believe. So, we don't have our full belief system aligned with the work that we're doing, we're going to struggle to go out and tell it. And to me, branding is aligning, who we believe we are as businesses, business owners and firms with the work that we're putting out. And then when that gets in alignment, that mindset happens, where we actually move, work, and what we do from our head to our heart, we move it from what we do to why we do it.
Katie Sanders 27:24
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
Michele 27:25
That's when you start to see the difference. So how do you take your clients through that process of? Okay, so it's not just the pictures, it's not just your aesthetic? How did? How do you layer on that, like you said, that's like the first layer? What, right,
Katie Sanders 27:43
So, every project that I do, starts with a brand brief, so we do a whole debriefing process. And just like you were saying, with, you know, when you did your brand, you know, we're asking all kinds of questions, they have no idea why we're, why we want to know this. But the more I can drag out of them, and the beginning, the better brand I can create for them, you know, I want to know everything about why they do what they do. And, you know, what's different about their process? And, you know, it seems like I think people come in, in the beginning and think, you know, they tell me who, you know, really describe like their ideal client. And, you know, so many brands have a very similar I don't client in the design world, you know, everybody wants, you know, this family with dual incomes. And, you know, I mean, like he that they just, yeah, they're just so busy, and they want you to do everything, and they don't want to micromanage and you know, like there is
Michele 28:47
1000 square foot house and,
Katie Sanders 28:49
Exactly. I mean, there is definitely a stereotype. I don't claim that everybody. But what's so much fun is figuring out, like, there's always something that makes it really unique. That's never that that's who they think their ideal client is. But then when you start talking to them, you realize like, well, that's just super surface level. And so they don't know that in the beginning. So really part of the process is asking all those random questions is the discovery. Right? Yeah, just to get to, you know, who really is that client? Because it's really not, you know, they may have dual incomes and a 10,000 square foot house, but, but, you know, what is it that makes those people different? And why is it that they're attracted to you? Why do you work so well together? We are in the middle of working with somebody right now. And, you know, she was just like that in the beginning, like, Well, I mean, I just want my clients have good taste. They don't make me do tacky things. So, they have big houses, like, you know, it was very surface level. And then when we started talking to her, I mean, she told us the amazing story about her house. I had been a sailor forever, and they had like, traveled the world. And she was this huge traveler. And she was a big art aficionado and then starts talking about her clients. And oh, well, we did this amazing historic renovation of this huge, like plantation and they moved the house. I mean, just amazing. And talking about her, you know, how these people had all these sentimental items from all of their travels. And you know, and it's like, she hadn't even made that connection that her clients were all well-traveled people. They all were art lovers. You know, it, they had so much in common, right? And it just really never dawned on her.
Michele 30:50
And sometimes we take that for granted. We just kind of see it and move through it. I had a client one time, when we were digging into her ideal client, we started realizing that the ones that she loved to work with were the ones that were philanthropic in nature. Mm hmm. And she really cared about that. And so the ones that were constantly giving and showing up not for show, right, but quietly serving, right, right. That's the ones that she realized that she enjoyed working with the most because they had kind of that servant's heart that giving heart. And when they had that kind of heart, it also made them kind it made them understanding. So, it kind of, like half of other characteristics and behaviors that worked well with her. And yeah, and not, she hadn't put it together before.
Katie Sanders 31:39
Yeah, and I and it's a snowball kind of process, you know, when you start to realize there are a couple things that, you know, you really figure out and then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, gosh, you know, all these things about your client that you didn't really realize. And it just makes it easier to start figuring out. I mean, in branding, there's so much psychology behind it. So, once you know some of those things about your client, and then you know, what's important to you and what your values are. And you can find where all of that aligns, then you can look at color psychology, you can figure out, you know, what kind of thoughts communicate this, this feeling. And you know, and then you figure out what needs to go into your messaging, and it's just one thing after another, it all sort of falls into place. But it doesn't until you get those details in the beginning.
Michele 32:34
Alright, so if we were to compare creating this brand to the work that I do, and the word that designers do, it's a layered approach. Absolutely right, you don't just walk in, again, back to what we said earlier in a day, and just kind of sit down. And well, there is my brand. I mean, that's not usually I'm not saying that some things don't come faster than others. I don't mean to imply that. But it's not a quick and dirty process. This is a thoughtful,
Katie Sanders 33:02
right
Michele 33:02
hold together process. So, designers go into homes, work rooms, the same thing. We're thinking about it, we're planning it, we're strategizing it, we're laying it out, we're looking at multiple ways, to make someone feel a certain way and a space, right, right, and to have certain elements highlighted and other elements not highlighted and the whole thing. And sometimes you don't even see it all at the beginning, you have to work through it to kind of get the best of the best and see it. When I go when I tell people my job as a coach is to help you design your business. So, we have to sometimes pull it all the way apart go way down, I don't care that you're a $5 million company, I got to go down to the basics to make sure that the foundation that you had is going to support moving you to 10 million, you might have a foundation that got you to five, but if we don't fix the cracks, it's not going to get you to 10. Right, just like from 100,000 to a million, we got to fix that foundation. And then a lot of ways if our brands don't have a good foundation, they won't continue to elevate and grow with us and move us to the next level.
Katie Sanders 34:12
Right. And I love how it's all it's also related. It's almost like a house of cards, when you start doing all the stuff and then, you know, I tell my clients all the time, like, it's so similar to how you work with your clients. Now I'm working with them. Because when your client comes to you and says, Well, I love what you've done, but I want a different sofa that changes everything, you know, you're not just going to pull out the sofa and pop in another one. Like, every decision affects another decision. And it's the same way with branding like you're not just going to change one color and your logo and move on. You know, it's just it's everything affects everything else and you have to look at it as a whole and you have to look at it. All of your copy, and your tagline and your logo, and you know the patterns, I'm real big on creating patterns for brands. Because I love when you can have these consistent graphics and elements and things that aren't your logo that can be recognizable. Because I think a lot of brand designers stop with the logo, you know, they give you a color palette, and they're going to give you your font, they're going to have your logo, but that's not a brand. And so I like showing people how you can have all these interchangeable parts. And then you have to figure out how it all works together as a suite. And you can't just change one without, you know, making sure it works with everything else.
Michele 35:45
And so when you go through this process with your clients, Katie, how long does it take what is kind of like a timeline to lay things together?
Katie Sanders 35:55
Typically, we can do a brand and a website in about three to four months. If we just do the brands, it's usually about six to eight weeks.
Michele 36:08
Okay? See, and that's what mine was about three months for the branding. And it was a little more scattered, we weren't as intentional. And I remember thinking this craziest thing, I thought it was going to meet with you one time, and it was going to be fun. And it wasn't and that, but that's not unreasonable. Just like if we were to go in design their home, if we were to go in and design anything, it's a process, right, Larry, and it's going to take time. So, let me ask you this, when you when people come to you, and they tell you, they already have a brand. Right? I hear that a lot. Because a lot of people do. And a lot of people love what they have. Right. And when I say brand, probably it means the logo, a lot of people,
Katie Sanders 36:50
Right, that is the 99%. The case is that when they say they have a brand.
Michele 36:55
They really have a logo. Right? Right. And so, and that when as long as the logo is still relevant, there's still a branding process is what I'm trying to get across, right? Like, just like, for example, there's nothing wrong with saying I have a logo, and I love it. And I don't want to change it. And I like my business name. And I like my colors and blah, blah, blah, got it. But I don't want us to confuse the logo with being the brand. And so there's still a branding exercise that can happen. Even if we're not creating a logo, we may be able to tweak it, or there It may be that it doesn't need to be tweaked. But there are other elements created to deal with it. That is to us about that a little bit. Because a lot real estate have a brand. And really what they're saying is to have a logo.
Katie Sanders 37:42
So that's a conversation I have with almost every client right in the beginning. Because what I get a lot and like you were saying at the beginning of this of this call that you know, you don't you don't work with everybody anymore, you know, you're not doing every service. So, and I'm the same way. I every project starts with branding. So, I do get people that come to me and say, Well, I already have a brand. I just need a website. And what were the discussion we always have is that we need to dig into what you do have before we agree on whether you actually have a brand or not. Right?
Michele 38:22
Is that foundational piece, right? Right? We need to see if you don't have the foundational brand work done. And let's be honest, some may come to you and have 75% of it. And maybe they had the whole 100% three years ago, but their brand has evolved. And there's right at present that needs to be shifted, updated, changed. Some they come to you with 10%, meaning they have the logo, right. And they have no messaging nothing.
Katie Sanders 38:48
And what we generally do is we sit down and go through the process. Yeah, regardless of what they have, and then compare it to what they have and say, okay, does the logo that you currently have actually reflect what we just found in all of this brand work? Or do you need a new one? Or does it just need to be tweaked? Or you know, what is the next step? But we can't decide what that next step is? Without doing all that initial work? Right?
Michele 39:19
And do you get a lot of pushback on that? Or do they understand it? Um, it says that you know what, it's no different than saying, Come in and design my house, but I've got all my furniture and you're like, Yeah, I do. They might not really go with you.
Katie Sanders 39:33
It's, it's a fear thing. It's really hard to you know, I think and I mean, all of us as, as entrepreneurs have worked really hard to build our businesses like for a lot of people that that logo that they built their business on, they're really attached to it, whether it's actually doing its job or not, right. They feel really emotional about it,
Michele 39:57
Because they're connected to it.
Katie Sanders 39:59
Right? So usually it's just a conversation about, you know, a lot of times what I tell people is, you know, this old logo, because it does not reflect what we've all of what we've just discovered in this brain discovery. What you need to wrap your head around is that this logo represents the old design firm. And what we are trying to do is take a step forward. And, you know, what got you to this point in your business is not going to get you to the next level of your business.
Michele 40:40
But we are thankful for that. Right, right, to be thankful that the logo that you had, or is a brand that you had brought you to here.
Katie Sanders 40:48
Yes. And there are a lot of logos, yeah, there's a lot of brands that I work with, where we do a new logo, but if you look at their old logo and their new logo side by side, it's like you can see the trajectory, you can see the history of that company. And you can see that this is a step in a new direction. But we're still preserving all that history. You know, we're still saying, this is just the new firm. But, you know, it's, it's the future of our firm.
Michele 41:22
Like, I've even seen quite a few where they didn't change much except the fonts.
Katie Sanders 41:28
Mm hmm.
Michele 41:29
Right?
Katie Sanders 41:29
Because this small change can make a huge impact. Yeah, it's just yeah, it's just being intentional about it, and knowing, knowing how important those choices are. And you know, knowing which small changes will actually make an impact. And, you know, don't change your logo just to change your logo. But also don't hold on to an old logo. That's nice, not getting the right thing, right. Because I think, yeah, people are so scared to change sometimes because oh, well, everybody knows this logo, and I've had it forever and, okay, but we can honor that. And, and still get you to the next level, where if you're just going to say, Well, I can't ever change this, then you're not going to move forward.
Michele 42:15
So, when we think about brand, with logo without logo, the whole thing, right? And people come to you and tell you that they have a brand and you go through that discovery process to even figure out what they really do have, you were saying that you think one, especially if they have a logo already, that one of the things that stops them from moving forward is fear. But I would say the other one, and I mean, this in the best possible way is ignorance. It's that belief that if it's always been that way, it will always be that way because they're not going to recognize me, they're not going to trust me, I've already, you know, built my reputation, or ignorance of the process that brand means more than logo, and it can continue to evolve,
Katie Sanders 43:03
Right? And realizing that it is super rare for a company, you know, 10 years out to have the same exact client that they had when they started
Michele 43:15
Right it is very rare, unless your like McDonald's.
Katie Sanders 43:18
Yeah, I mean, so what started what worked for them. And you know, what attracted the right clients, to them at one point, is really probably not effective at all anymore, because they have a whole nother client now. So, they have to make sure that it's communicating the right things.
Michele 43:37
That's exactly what I do. And my Aim with Intent Methodology, as I talked to them about the fact that the systems and the processes that we use to build the business to where they are, may not be the same systems and processes. And without tweaks or without completely is better moving them forward. I mean, when we think about if you're starting a design firm, you're a solopreneur, you know, you're doing some of these beginning projects, they may be $5000, $10,000. All in and we're just like blown away that we've got five or $10,000. And then you go out a few years and the budgets are a million or $200 million or whatever. That's a whole lot more that we add, in the process of managing a $10,000 budget, and managing a million-dollar budget are not the same. They may have some of the same basic principles, but it's not the same guy financials that we have to watch, when we're a person have one or a company of one is very different than the financials that we have to watch when we have rent. And when we have employees. And yeah, again, that same thought process with a brand. It's like buying a bigger house. You might have furniture, but it's not what you need for the next location. We all kind of know that. We just don't always apply it to the idea of growing our brand.
Katie Sanders 44:59
Well and then There's a stubbornness to it. And, you know, oh, I just don't want to do this. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I, you know, it's hard because then you think about everything that it affects when you start changing one thing, and then you're changing another thing. And then oh, gosh, I just got new business cards. And now I'm going to need new ones.
Michele 45:21
What do you mean new colors?
Katie Sanders 45:22
You know? Yeah. What about what, you know, I had somebody who had just painted their logo on the side of their brick building. And she was like, but I just did you know, so you just start thinking about all the things and it does, it's a snowball, and it affects a lot of things. But you just have to think of long term ROI on stuff like this, and, you know, is saving a couple 100 bucks on business cards right now. Really the right decision when, you know, really changing things could bring in, you know, way more than a couple 100 bucks in the coming years.
Michele 45:59
All right. So, let me ask you this. Given that I'm certain that this is a conversation that you have often just know that it is because I have it often. And I'm not even doing branding, right? It's this the way I've always done it. But wait a minute, but when it Hey, all right. So how do you play psychologist and really help them because it is emotional. I mean, most people are emotionally attached to what they have created. And when they've done, they are and rightly so. Right. Yeah, I get that. Because I am to, like you said, there's a stubbornness, there's a fear, there's some intimidation, there is it feels like a mountain in front of you. How do you encourage them to look forward? Or even encourage them to keep the same logo but change the message? Like sometimes it's not just yeah, I'm trying to make the point here. This isn't about just one thing. Right? Exactly about the overall brand. So, your logo could be perfect, but your messaging be stinky? Yes. Or vice versa. So how do you calm them in the process? to even say, Come on, and trust me and take the next steps with me? We're going to have something really great on the other side of this process. Yeah,
Katie Sanders 47:11
It definitely requires some conversation.
Michele 47:14
Yeah, right. There is some digging in going. I don't really want to go through that process, or Yeah, are you asking me that question? I mean, I send out a really long questionnaire when people start working with me, and they write back in tears. Like, that didn't mean two years. And I'm like, Well, I wasn't trying to make you cry. But there's that connection. So how do you how do you play psychologist and say, Come with me? Come on?
Katie Sanders 47:38
Yeah, I do think I do think I'm half of being a graphic designer, and probably an interior designer, too, is being a little bit of a therapist for people. And maybe it's a little bit of everything when you're one on one with anyone. But yeah, I mean, it's just a lot, it's having very open conversations. And, you know, I, always want my clients to know that, at the end of the day, this is their decision. And this is their brand, and they have to be happy with it. And I'm going to do my job, which sometimes is to give them that hard news that, that what they have, is not going to support where they want to go. And I'm going to give them all the information I'm going to give them and I'm going to do my best to urge them to move in the right direction. But I always say, you know, at the end of the day, this is your decision, like I'm not going to force you to change something that you don't want to change. You know, it's not, it's not going to become like a competition between who's going to win this fight over where you want your business to go. Because, you know, it's it is their decision. But, um, I don't know, maybe it has something to do to do with being a southerner. And the way, you know, just the way that I talk to people and you know, people, you know, we just, it ends up being a very friendly conversation.
Michele 49:12
We really care. I mean, we're having conversations, because with a number one because they came to us, right? We didn't have them in and say, brand is stinky, and I need to help you, like, right came to us. But then I think when they get through that know, like, trust, it's that at the end of the day, Katie wants to help me make my brand representative.
Katie Sanders 49:38
And I think that comes across. I mean, I would say probably 75% of the people who call me initially call me because they think they just need a new website. And that's it. They just want a new website. And then we start talking and then you know, then they realize, okay, maybe there's more to it than that. And maybe I'm just lucky, but I've had such great clients that have actually listened to me and trusted me and let me lead them in the right direction. I don't know, it's never easy, but I think it's something that people always see dividends on that.
Michele 50:19
Sure. So, all right, so let me ask you this, how often then, let's say that somebody worked with you, they have worked through their brand, whether it's a new logo, a tweak to the logo, the same logo, with their messaging is on point, you know, their brand pillars, their voice, they've got all that worked out, they get a new website, how often do you think they should kind of do a brand review?
Katie Sanders 50:43
I would say usually, like, every few years, I would look or if they've made any kind of pivot than at any time, you know, if they're pivoting their business every year, then there's probably a bigger issue than just their branding. Um, but I think anytime that you are looking at changing a service, or adding a service or anything like that, I would always look at branding then, in general, if things aren't changing a whole lot, I would say probably do like a check in every three years. Okay. Um, I mean, I feel like if your brand has done really well, and you're not, you're not changing your client, or your mess, you know, like, you're not really trying to change something or just status quo. But you really should not need more than a tweak in 10 years. Right, you know, you should be able to do like a 10-year potential tweak just to make it not look dated, because eventually, no matter what you do, it's going to date. But you shouldn't need to start from scratch. Right? I wouldn't think ever.
Michele 51:56
Good deal. Good deal. So, let me ask you this, as we start to wrap up, when people come to you and say, you know, I want to new websites and assess the way 75% are coming to you. And you start the conversation with them about we start with brand. And here's what we do. And you said it's about did you say about three to four months from kind of that first reach out in general?
Katie Sanders 52:27
And so it takes about three to four months from the time we start the project, right?
Michele 52:33
Um, yeah. Okay. And is there a, when they're looking to choose someone to work with and the capacity that that you serve in what you do? What are some of the things they should look for to figure out if it's the right company or branding expert to work with them? Because they're, they're multiples out there, right? Oh, yeah. Do you just like when a homeowner says, How do I? Yeah, which one? We're not just choosing on budget. How do they make the decision on if this is the right company to work with?
Katie Sanders 53:09
Right? Yeah, yeah, brain designers are a dime a dozen.
Michele 53:13
I wouldn't say that a ton of us, like all the rest of us, there are multiple. So what's that thought process that they should go through when they're making a selection.
Katie Sanders 53:23
So, I like to tell people to, you know, no matter what they should get on a call, and talk to these people, um, I don't think you can tell just by, you know, going back and forth an email, like, you need to make sure that this person is a good communicator, and actually talks to you in the way that, you know, make sense. And you can usually tell in a conversation, if, because there are going to be strong arm designers that are going to say, like, here's how I do it. And there's no other way, and this is what you're going to do. So, if that's not the way you like to work, then you know, you can usually tell that in a 15 minute conversation. So definitely look at that. And then I would definitely look at, you know, there's no, anyone can call themself a brand designer. There's not a certification, right?
Michele 54:21
It's not regulated.
Katie Sanders 54:22
yes, there's no regulation. And there are a lot of kind of hack designers out there. So, you have to be really careful and know that the person that you're hiring, can do what they say they can do. So, I like to tell people to make sure that if they really want someone to look at their brand, that this person is not just someone who just only does visuals, you know, you want to make sure that they actually are going to look at your messaging. They're actually going to like to incorporate something with you know, it's not just like, Well What colors do you like, because I know a lot of designers who send you your questionnaire and ask you what colors you want? Like, if you have a designer doing that, then you should run, because they should never just say, what colors do you like? What's your favorite color? I'll do your logo in that. That means there's no strategy behind it. Um, because there's a lot of people who are great illustrators, but it's not strategic. So that's an important thing, I think, is to make sure that there is there's a strategic process behind it. It's not just pretty, because pretty just doesn't sell, you know, you want to make sure it's worth it.
Michele 55:33
There's got to be a rhyme to the reason, right,
Katie Sanders 55:35
Yes. And then I think as far as looking for someone to do your website, there are tons of website designers as well. You want to make sure that they're using the platform that you want your site to be on, and that they have a reason for that. And there's a lot of different platforms, WordPress, you know, Shopify, Squarespace, like there's a million different things you can do. So, talk to them about why they use that particular platform and what they can do with it. Yeah, and make sure they understand. I always like to tell people to make sure that whoever they hire understands search engine optimization, and that they're not just going to design the site, but it's actually I mean, just like your brand, it needs to be strategic, everything has to have some strategy behind it. So those are all good things just to look out for.
Michele 56:22
That's awesome. So, Katie, where can people find you where you're hanging out?
Katie Sanders 56:27
They can find me at my website, which is popandgrey.com. And then also, I'm also an Instagram @popandgrey, same handle. Yeah, that's pretty much where I am.
Michele 56:41
Awesome. Well, I'll have those linked in the show notes so that you can go there and they can see on just how engaging you are in a in your quick going through your website, like, even without listening to a great conversation. But, Katie, I really appreciate your time. I appreciate your expertise and sharing with us today.
Katie Sanders 57:00
Yeah, this was super fun. Thank you so much for having me.
Michele 57:03
It was my pleasure. Have a great day.
Katie Sanders 57:04
Thanks, you too.
Michele 57:06
Thank you, Katie for sharing today. Honestly, we're all doing the same thing, designing a brand, a space or a business and we begin this from the ground up, analyzing each step and each layer of the process. My goal is Scarlet Thread Consulting is to come beside you and help you get where you're going with ease. Check out the details on my website at ScarletThreadConsulting.com. sign up for a discovery call if you want to see if we're a fit and then let me help you move forward. Businesses, brands and profits are never made by accident.