132: The Top Skill Set That Can Explode Your Interior Design Firm
Michele 00:00
Rose Zefferino is the owner of Z Domus Designs a builder's interior design firm located in Pennsylvania. Rose began her career and homebuilding as a project manager right out of college and then moved over the years into more of the design position. Here she focused on selections and assisting other builders and creating a smooth-running process that served both the clients buying and building the home as well as the builders responsible for the construction. In this episode, Rose shares with us how her design and selection management process has been honed, based on her beginning in construction. We discussed the differences and custom builds and community management, as well as hiring for these different but very similar support positions. This episode also helps continue the conversation around the fact that there are many facets to design, and that finding your area of expertise and then doubling down there can be really profitable. Hey, Rose, welcome to the podcast.
Rose Zefferino 01:40
Thanks, Michele. Excited to be here.
Michele 01:42
I'm excited to have you here and talk all about your business and how you have come into design and, how your business maybe looks a little different than others that are in the industry. I think it's fascinating.
Rose Zefferino 01:56
Yeah, it's definitely different than I think what most people would consider with design in home construction and home design.
Michele 02:05
So before we get started with all of that Rose, I would love for you to share with our listeners a little bit about yourself, and tell us about what you did prior to starting your own firm.
Rose Zefferino 02:18
Sure. So, I actually started off with a construction background. My degrees are in business management and construction management. So right out of undergrad, I started working for a national home builder, and they were building, I don't want to call them track homes, but they were building communities where, you know, you have set floor plans and you know a customer can can buy and customize and kind of personalize it within a program. I started off being a project manager there. I was in the field, managing construction and was actually the only woman doing that at the time, which was actually had its own challenges, but it created a lot of opportunities for me. So, I started off with that and it really helped me understand, how a house is built. So, I managed it from from foundation through, you know, the windows being cleaned, it was kind of everything in between. So, while I wasn't actually like swinging a hammer, I saw all of the phases that were involved. I did that for about four years, then went into costing with the same builder went into costing, so then I learned more about how much things cost, you know, commodities versus local expenses. And that's really when I started getting into a little bit, getting more knowledge about the cost of finishes, so like plumbing fixtures, lighting, all that stuff. So, I did that for about a year, and then went into sales. So then same company again, but then in a different department. So now I'm selling the houses that I know how to build and how much it costs to build. So, I think I approach sales in a very different way because I can talk through the technical parts where maybe some people were unable to do so, with the background that I had. So, after doing that for about maybe seven years total all in I was approached by somebody that I had met actually in college who started his own construction company in Pennsylvania on the main line, and he hired me to manage his custom homes and renovations department which kind of culminated all that experience that I had at the other builder and just became one position where I was able to manage his staff and grow that part of his business. From there, I think I naturally fell into design a little bit more just because I was exposed more to the custom world. The custom world where it wasn't like in a box of here are 10 options that you can choose. And I was really being, you know, going out there and finding anything that a client needs. And, you know, there's a lot of affluence where I am, so that there's a lot of exposure to a lot of different materials. So, I had done that for about three years and developed, you know, reputation around the area that I that this was a unique position within a building firm, because not a lot of building firms in the area had somebody like me, male or female just didn't have anybody like me, who was kind of helping a customer guide them through the design process. So that's when I realized that there was actually a void in the business, in our industry where there wasn't somebody like me in other builders. So from there, I developed a business plan where I could be the outsourced construction designer or new construction or renovation designer, where builders of meaning medium to small scale could hire me and my firm to do that selections guidance where we can sort of be a builders rep for the client, but at the same time help the client designed through the, through all their selections for the finishes of their homes. So that sort of the dome is designed started.
Michele 06:48
Okay, so a couple of questions. Number one, your undergrad is in business, right? Not in construction management, that's what your master's is in. So, I told you, before we went online, both my boys have construction management undergrad degrees, so for them to go in, and they're both on the commercial side, but for them to go and one is project management and the other does the costing and the budgeting. So, it's interesting that they have one in each of those roles. But they came out of college, knowing that they wanted to go into, you know, that part of construction simply because that's what their degree was in. But your undergrad was not in that, your undergrad was in business, what made you decide not only to go into construction, but to accept a job, of course, were they were, I don't want to say it's like they're taking a chance as if you couldn't do it. But they were also kind of trailblazing to put a woman in a position that by and large in that area did not have a woman in a position like that, like, how did that happen?
Rose Zefferino 07:51
Yes. So, it's funny, cuz I went to college thinking I was going to be like an investment banker, I was going to, you know, be in Wall Street, and I was going to do all this stuff. And then the minute I had my first finance class, I was like, I don't think I could do this, like for my entire life, and what what the migration sort of happened, where I started realizing that I really liked seeing a product for my work. So, it wasn't just that I was going to make people money, or I was going to do it. Like I wanted to see something. So, I originally got really interested in like in event planning, that was sort of my version of seeing what you could you know, what your work was. So that initially started my thought process. Um, but at the same time, like it was sort of more of like a hobby than what I thought my career could be. And my parents when I was in high school had got me a drafting table, because they noticed that I was like, tracing. Like on trace paper, like tracing houses, I don't know if I even realize the connection until recently about how there was actually this underlying, I don't know, like love for that; I liked it that much. And I think what happened was, it was at a career fair, and I started walking around. So, I went, I went to Cornell, and they have a really giant, career fair. And they have several of them that happen as you start to get prepared to graduate. And I would just walk around to all of the different locations. And I just started to realize that I was migrating toward these houses, like all the companies that would come that were going to do home construction, like, that's where I started to kind of migrate to and I joke around and say that when I interviewed for the company, I in the panel like so, they had, you know, four or five people were scheduled for the same interview day that I was in They were all women sitting there. And I feel like and I remember thinking, and I remember thinking, I think I was duped. Like when I got there, and I was hired, and they were like, oh, you're the first one. I was like, Really? I have no idea why I had no idea that this was gonna be some, you know, trailblazing? But I just think it was sort of this unconscious, almost, like desire, you know, kind of direction for me to get into construction. And it really was construction. First, right in it before it was design.
Michele 10:50
That's so interesting. My, my oldest, I could remember him drawing out plans for a bookcase and a desk combo, drawing out plan, like just doodling, right, but drawing things out. And I remember, my husband and I both said, He's going to either be architecture building construct something like we could see, we didn't know what it could be. And we didn't want to say, here's what you need to do. And then I remember he thought civil engineering in right at the beginning, he's like, I don't know that I could specialize in that one thing for the rest of my life, kind of the way you felt about finance. So, it's interesting as a parent to look in, and to see even just these little underlying things, you know, with somebody else that, like you said, you might not even connect the dots until later. And our younger son was more of a builder, like, not, I won't say more, he was different. He was constantly putting things together, you know, ignoring the box directions for Legos. And they both were like, you know, just doing these things. And we were both kind of like, Ha, they are drawn to those things. So, I love that you now in hindsight, can see where you were drawn into those things. And let's be honest event planning, even, even though it is very different. It is about design, I mean, you are designing an event you are designing a mood you're designing, you know, something that is getting ready to happen the same way that we would design how you want to feel in your home or in your space. But I love that you came at it complete, you came at it from very much a technical perspective, right? Like on that ending on site, watching the concrete for watching all the things that are happening, and really understanding the ins and outs. Okay, so you show up on the project, you're now building houses. How did you? I mean, I'm gonna hope that they didn't take you straight out of Cornell with a business degree and throw you on site and tell you to build a house and hope it is going to be okay. So, I'm certainly I am crossing my fingers and toes they say never asked a question you don't know the answer to really vague here that they gave you some level of training before they put you on site, right?
Rose Zefferino 12:57
Yes, they did. So, I am I actually, you know, I really credit a lot of my initial success to having very, very good mentors. I was paired with a project manager who was a seasoned project manager, so you kind of shadow this person. So, I was his assistant for essentially 10 months. So during those 10 months, I think it was like once every two weeks or something, they would pull you out of the field and have in classroom training. So, they'll train you, every, you know, every phase of construction.
Michele 13:36
So, you're on the job training, and then doing some classroom training as well to support the job.
Rose Zefferino 13:41
Oh, yeah. So, we had the full, like, I mean, my, the whole training program that I received was excellent. I mean, I think that they did it in a way so that I actually still have the manual. And I've given it to my younger designers, just so that they can read through everything that I learned just because it it's helpful just to understand, like, you know, little things like, you know, you can't just move a wall, like if it's supporting something, and you can't just move it, or you can't put a niche on an outside wall, because where's the installation gonna go? You know, so there's different things like that, that I think just knowing a little bit of construction helps us manage the finishes for people. I took the most out of my art, like in the field training, because I saw things so it was actually probably most valuable for me to see the mistakes so that you can see like, you know, what, what do you have to think through so that I don't have to do that.
Michele 13:57
Right. What precipitated that mistake?
Rose Zefferino 14:44
Yeah, and I, and I think one of the things that was very unique to me specifically, being a woman in construction is that like sometimes when mistakes happen, and you don't schedule something, or like, let's say I don't want to do generalize and just say, men, but like, let's say you forget to schedule somebody to help unload a truck, the guys would just unload the truck. Like because they forgot to schedule it, I was in absolutely no position to unload a truck, like, I mean, I'm five foot nothing. And I can't, I'm not strong enough to do that. So, like I had so much I had to do, so much preparation, and so much work ahead of time to make sure that I was never in that position for myself, because I never wanted anybody to think I couldn't do my job, because of my physical limitations of what I could do. So that in itself also taught me just how to pre plan for things.
Michele 15:51
Alright, so I'm going to ask this question, and I hope I don't like anger anybody, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Sometimes in construction, residential and commercial, I have seen builders, primarily male, look at female designers or female project builders, almost as if they're driving them crazy. And I think that some of that is because perhaps some of the designers that they've been around were not prepared and didn't have good systems and didn't plan in advance. And so, things felt or came across as scattered or out of control or like, just not flowing, in a way it felt more like it was causing them injury or harm, instead of assisting and helping in that process. is did you did you feel any of that in the construction piece? And I'm going to jump forward? Do you ever have to combat that or use that as a sales tool to turn it around another direction? Now in the new business?
Rose Zefferino 17:07
Yeah, so I definitely felt it when I was on the construction side. Because if you know, clients have a friend who's a designer who has these ideas, and obviously, there's a lot more trust in that relationship than there is in a newer relationship, like being a builder that comes in. So, I definitely felt that where you kind of have to work around a relationship, but also meet deadlines, and stay on budget and all that. So, I've definitely felt that. But on my side, now, being the designer that comes in, I have absolutely been able to use that as a tool for my sales for my company, because I don't know of anyone, there's probably a handful of people in this area that I can think of, that have had that type of career trajectory, like I have, that I can confidently tell a builder that I've spent most of my career building these houses. While I don't claim to be an expert, like you are with building the type of house houses you do, but I approach design with the knowledge that I want to make sure you can build it. Because I myself have seen what happens. And I have dealt with what happens when you work with a designer who doesn't account for that.
Michele 18:32
He understands the build process, so that it's more about furnishings than or they create a finishing schedule, but it's late in the game like you understand the timing. I think that is the one of the bigger pieces there is understanding the timing. I know even you know I love project management. I love all that. And I remember years ago, when we were redoing, in the grand scheme of things, a smaller project, we were doing a master bathroom and a master closet and our own home. And I remember hiring you know, interviewing contractors hiring the contractor, making all of the selections and actually buying everything and having it in my dining room. Almost on the day he started, and he walked in the house and he was like, what is all this? And I said, Well, I know you won't get to it for a week or multiple weeks. But I have everything ready. Like I knew what I wanted. I already had it; I will not be the one that holds you up. And so, they loved that because he's like, I've never had a designer, like have everything that ready in his experience. So, if they were upstairs working in the master and they needed something, they could run downstairs to the dining room, pick it up, walk up there and check the measurement or check where they needed to cut a hole or do whatever they needed to do. And so, it's the timing Have all of that that is so important, and especially with building a full home. So, you move from one area of building the house, then you move into the costing piece, which is, you know, I love that too, because now you understand what things cost. And then you get hired away, where you're working on more custom homes, that then kind of adds that bigger design element into the more, I'm going to say mechanical work of building costing the home. So, it's a little bit more of the aesthetic piece of it too, right. And it elevates your selections because you move from something that's more community driven. And into something that might be has some community aspect, but also has a little more custom aspect. So, we get you through all of that, that's like 10 years, I and then you decide to step out on your own. That's where I'm gonna focus the rest of our time is really talking about so all I wanted to lay the groundwork like you are coming into this position, having done it, so when you now are going in and selling your services, to these builders, you're selling the service of I've built a home, I understand, you know, again, maybe not the exact home you're building, but I know enough to know how to support you and help you. So, you have a sales message. It comes across very differently than a sales message of, hey, let me come in and help make some selections for you if there's a deeper conversation that's happening. Right now, when you first started this rose, did you think that what what did you think when you first started it and you thought I'm stepping out on my own? I don't want to put words in my mouth. Can you tell us? What did you think the business was going to be? Or look like? What did you see it as in that moment?
Rose Zefferino 21:49
So, I actually was lucky enough to start my business with one big client. So, I knew I was able to have a good foundation and consistent work for myself. I think I thought I would have maybe one or two other people, other designers working with me, and that we would be like a small group that could help be smaller in scale; mainline builders and help them and their customers. And I guess I think I thought there was going to be a need, but maybe there wasn't. I think I realized, I guess, how do I put this? I think I thought that a lot of builders already had a solution that might not have been a designer but have had a system to work through. And I'm sure a lot of them do. But what I very quickly found out, so I went from one, one client, within four months, I hired my first part time designer that within four months of that became full-time. Actually, even probably sooner than that became full time. But I I went from one client to two pretty quickly through just a referral. And then within that first, maybe six to eight months, to a year and a half I gained like seven more. It happened very quickly. And then I was hiring. And then my just taking on one or two with me just very quickly became something where I was like, wow, there is actually a way bigger need for this than I even imagined myself. You know, when I started this, and it's been exciting. I remember when my first year, I was at the Home Builders Association, my local Home Builders Association and my showroom, won best new showroom for the year. And I remember even turning to my staff at the time being like, I just think we need one more and then we're good. And then that was like two employees like later like so. It's been it's been super exciting. And I love that I've been able to find this niche in this area where it seems like we can service builders and service clients so that they have a better home building experience.
Michele 24:15
I love this very very much. Because it one of the reasons that you know you and I wanted to do this podcast was to show that there's so many different ways to approach design. And there's nothing wrong with any way that we do it if it's serving the need in our community, and it's using our skill set that we're great at right or that we've developed and that we enjoy then that is okay. You know we've talked about before. I think Katie Baldwin and I talked about that fear of missing out or you know, she loves the project management window treatment piece and somehow feeling like it wasn't okay to just like a piece of the of the overall you know, design If you will, you are coming at it liking a different part of the process and really having your own systems built to be able to do that very, very well. So, tell me this, when you started it, I'm certain that you pulled together all the processes and all the things that you've done things that you saw in your past that had worked really well. Things that you wanted to tweak and make different. How important is it to run the firm that you because you have like, what, four or five employees plus you, right?
Rose Zefferino 25:31
Yes, yeah.
Michele 25:32
Okay, so this is much bigger than Rose and Rose with a part time assistant, this is a much bigger thing. And you and I, I mean, we work together. So, we also know, it could be a whole lot bigger than it is right now. We're just working on through the ame process. We're working to scale it with intent and to make sure we're scaling at the appropriate rate, right. So, we know that there's still capacity in that. But I'm curious as to how important and how quickly you put systems into place to fill that gap that was existing between the builder and the homeowner in their process? how, you know, they may have had a process that maybe like you said, it's definitely wasn't as robust as the one you created, how quickly did you create systems and processes to be able to fill that gap.
Rose Zefferino 26:28
So, in full disclosure, and probably still creating systems to be able to do all that, but because of my position, before I started my business, I was sort of a one person show in terms of everything with the selection. So you know, every spreadsheet I created to organize myself, and every checklist was sort of, I created it. You know, just for me, really to keep track of everything. And so I was able to convert that into templates for myself and my designers to be able to work off of, and I am you know, maybe it's because my background or just my personality, I'm very, like I write lists for everything I prefer to be able to think through like from start to finish. So, I spent a lot of time going through and saying, you know, you you meet a customer, you schedule, you know, appliances before count cabinetry, because appliance, you need to know the sizes of your plants, you know, so I went through and did all of the, the order that would make sense, so that I can essentially train somebody to know the stuff that I know. So that'sprobably happened a little slower than it should have, because it had to all come from my brain into paper. But I think...
Michele 27:54
You also started off thinking that it wasn't going to be a larger firm, right? And so in all fairness, first of all, a couple of things. We all hold information in our head. And so, people who tell me I don't have a process or a system I call bull, you just have it in your head. And it's probably not written down. I mean, we all have it even we even have the process to wake up and brush our teeth. But we wouldn't tell you that that's a process, but we have it. So that's one thing. And then the second thing I just want to point out, you said I'm probably still working on it, I actually think you should, right? We've talked about this even in the aim of intent. The conversation is that when we're building a business, just like we're building a home or any building, we're constantly working on some of the foundational pieces. Because if you started your business thinking it was going to be you and maybe one person, the fact that it's now you and four or five people, that's a bigger Foundation, we're building a bigger house a bigger business, right than what we had planned for, which means the processes that got you going initially might not be the max of the process to get you going longer term. So that iterative process of looking at your process is actually very healthy. I would rather hear that then oh, I built it. And I'm done. And I'm never looking at it again. That's a little scary sometimes. Right? If we're not going back. And so how, how has it been? Let me rephrase this. I'm going to jump around for just a second. But I know that you're working with many builders now. How important is it? And I think I know the answer to this. So you know, I've always tried to be careful. How important is it now for you to work with builders that respect that that respect your process, not just that you respect theirs, but that they respect yours for the role that you and your team feel?
Rose Zefferino 29:46
Oh, gosh, I learned this the hard way. It's it's super important. It's so obviously we are stepping into a role that in many cases that builders have never had before. So similar to like what I do was saying that I was doing everything, that's what they were doing. So there is definitely a, I think there's first a recognition that they need somebody like us, then there's the acceptance that they that they need to allow us to do what we do, and and there is a system to it so that we can get them the paperwork that they need when they want it. So, I've definitely definitely learned the hard way, where it's where you realize that, you know, for one reason or another, there's just not that release of trust in what we do. Or the, you know, we are a contractor of their so it's worth, while we might behave like we are. And, you know, we're representative and might feel like an employee to some, we are a contractor. So, there's a, I'm sure in setting, I've seen it in other cases where there has been this hesitation to give us everything, you know, so of course, I tried to mitigate against that by doing, you know, confidentiality thing, you know, everything so that they feel like I'm not going out there and giving all their secrets to all my other builders that we work with. So, there's obviously a lot of trust that they put in us, and we do it with them. And I think they've got to be willing to merge processes, they have to Yeah, and, you know, I've got to say that in some cases that some of the builders we work with have elevated my process, because I've seen something that they've done, which are it's, it's great and, we're able to, to service them, but then also improve ourselves just all together. And then there's just you know, on the converse side, we see processes that just don't work that if they are willing, and luckily, I would say like, you know, I feel like my success rates like 95% is, for the most part, we're able to combine our processes, whether it's the whether it's the spreadsheets, whether it's the timing or whether it's you know, how we how we, what we offer to the client, we're able to do that so that we can we can merge, but what I find I'm working on now more than ever is, as we're growing and servicing more builders, I want to create the dizzy Domus process, so that it is consistent across my while the products are different, and the offerings are different, the process is the same so that my designers are not having to reinvent themselves with every new builder that we have. And I think we take that by seeing the best of everything of best of all of our clients.
Michele 32:45
You know, I know you and I have talked about this over the last year or so. And about really understanding the why behind Z Domus and the values of Z Domus and what that transfer of trust looks like. And I do believe you now have, you've learned the hard way, which is mountains, we all have learned something the hard way in business. And that's not a bad teacher. Right? It's not a bad teacher. But I know that you've also had some where you, you started off thinking this was going to be a great build a relationship. And it you know, it was a kind relationship, but it was an emerged relationship. And then you probably had some where you thought I'm not really sure about this. And then after you got into it, you're like, Oh, my gosh, this is really great. Have you taken what you've learned now, from your why your values? What's important, the ability to transfer that trust back and forth between both of you the merging process? Are you now using some of that as part of if you will, a litmus test or part of a interview process with the builders, when you start to make sure early on? And are you creating some type of boundary that says like, let's let's try to build one house together and see if we can make this work or two houses? Have you put something in there to know when to have an exit? If it's not working for both of you? And how to eliminate the mistakes early on?
Rose Zefferino 34:12
Yeah, I definitely think that my criteria actually, when we, when working with any any new builder really has very little to do with their volume, be I don't care if it's, you know, we're goning to work together on two houses a year or if it's going to be 50 houses a year because ultimately the process is going to be the same for each house. So that has no bearing, on my decision on, you know, whether or not it's a valuable relationship. What I find was the most difficult in the beginning was when the builder was, you know, a potential builder would only want to work with us on projects that either it was like hand-picked like, it was not that we weren't there like designer of choice, like it made sense for them to use us, they would use us. And whenever it didn't, they would just manage it themselves. And what was difficult about that is what was happening is we were getting the difficult ones; we were getting the ones that they knew were going to be. And I don't want to see, you know, they were difficult for a lot of reasons, it could be difficult, because the timeframe that they were trying to do could be difficult with the based on the client expectations or whatever it might be, there was a reason why that was the one that they decided that was worth hiring, and that relationship is difficult, because we're already kind of once we're already not in an even ground, I think right? So right. That's sort of what I tried to feel out if it's a relationship that they feel like every client that they have every one of their homeowners needs our services, or if they feel like they're going to be able to kind of decide what which ones that are, which ones work or not. I've also had one of the other ones is that some, we are a service that a builder can sell as part of their sales process. That's how they gain, you know, they, they could say you're going to work with a designer, you're going to, you know, she's going to help you through the entire process along with us so we can concentrate on building and you can they can concentrate on the design. So we're definitely part of their package. Any builder who doesn't want to present us as part of their package is a red flag to me. Because to me, that means that they don't value the design process as part of their value add. Or they don't. I'm going to end up with a conflict of interest if they're requesting that the client hire us and not the builder, because then there's then it's like, who are we answering to? And that's, that is where I've learned in the beginning where I've, I used to allow that to happen. And now I don't because it really, it really put myself in my designers in a bad position. Because at the end of the day, the relationship started with the builder, but the clients paying us so that it doesn't feel right.
Michele 37:17
And we always follow where the money goes, right? And so right the clients, the one paying you, then it shifts your allegiance, if you will. And kind of like the difference between what is it a buyer's agent, the seller’s agent, if agents start to shift a little, um, you know, another area that I know that you and I have worked through is not just the the idea of, you know, moving you towards the client or towards the, the builder with regard to who's paying you or who's hiring you. And I know, we've talked through some of the opportunities where you only get like, the more difficult jobs from a builder. But we've also seen where some builders, you know, early on wanted to not give you the full part of the process. So, they might have given been willing to give you all of their clients, but they wanted to kind of dip in and out instead of that full merging of the process. So, then you could do three steps of your process, but not these two, right, which is kind of depending on on the full design side, that irritates us with a homeowner who says I want you to come in and design the whole space, and then they jump in and try to design around you. Right, that causes problems.
Rose Zefferino 38:37
We work best when we can do what we can do. It hurts the process when let's say we're going when we're working with our customer, and we're doing the selections meetings, we're going to the vendors, we're doing all that stuff, and then we're stalled because now the builders stepping back in and talking through what's included and what's this is the pricing and, and like they're going through and seeing all of the iterations what we do, like, I mean, all of us in our personal lives know how this works. When if you design a kitchen, how many times are you gonna change your mind? It's totally normal. It's part of our process. If you don't change your mind, you're going to regret something later. Or because it means you didn't think through it. So, when we're, we are here so that we are we're going through all of those changes with the customer, but if a builder interjects every time it, stalls the process, but then it also really makes it very confusing for the client because they're getting too many voices while they're trying to make their decision while they're trying to finalize something and it's starting to its waters. Yeah, and but it also starts to like, like, we're, we're supposed to be their design advocate. Right. So, like, were they supposed to us, for they should come to us as we can help them with the big picture of everything. But then if if the builder builder’s rep keeps coming into the they I think we lose control. We can’t show what we're, what our value is in that case is that we essentially at that point almost become paper pushers, because we're just getting them to sign off on stuff at that point.
Michele 40:37
And that's not the value that you really have.
Rose Zefferino 40:45
I was just gonna say so yeah, so that's definitely something that I've, you know, they've got to be able to trust that we are that we can handle that, which, you know, we started off talking about how in some cases, I think builders get have a negative connotation when they think about a designer. And that is the initial thing that we need to fight to be like, No, no, we're, we're gonna be more than just that for you. Or not even just that we're more than somebody who's looking at pretty things all day, like, we are going to help you get that product and get everything that you need when you need it and take a lot off their shoulders.
Michele 41:24
I mean, most builders, commercial or residential, they don't want the homeowner in there driving them crazy. All the time. Yeah, you know, not just listen, we've all done it. I mean, I, when we build our home, I was over here. And I know I drove those people crazy. I know I did. And it wasn't intentional. It's just, I didn't have a designer, I was acting in that role, or, you know, using other resources to do that. And so you're constantly just asking questions, and you don't have the intermediary. And there's nobody there to help you even just say, Yeah, that's a good choice. Like, you're not gonna let somebody do something in a house that's just ugly, right? It might not be a good taste, but you're still going to make sure that as a scheme, it runs through the house properly. So that as the client is looking for affirmation in their decision-making process, you provide that for them. And it allows the builder to keep their head down and do the building part, which is what they really want to do, most of them do not want to be pulled away from that.
Rose Zefferino 42:24
Now, and I think the other aspect, which I think is a huge advantage for home homeowners, which I often stress that the first time I meet with them is I don't work, we are not the builder, which means that if I tell you that something looks beautiful, it's not because I'm making $1 more on something like it's actually because it looks beautiful with this. So, you know, I have no motivation on my side to make you choose. And not i'm not saying that that's what builders do. But you know that there's a mindset. Like they're selling me on something like I'm not selling you on, you know, a quartz product that is, you know, $130 a square foot because I'm gonna make more money, it's because that's what looks good with this, the rest of the selections and what you're telling me like, like, so there's a different trust that I can develop with the customer, where they're going to be more willing to divulge what their budgets are, what they, what they, what they like, what they don't like, what they, you know, I just think that it ends up being a little bit more like they're less guarded with us, right, which is what it should be. And that makes it more enjoyable, because then they can at least have honest conversations about saying, you know, I just can't spend this kind of money on this room, or, you know, I really want to spend my money in my kitchen in my master, you know, so there's way more flex flexibility that I have in in charge of working through budgets, versus somebody who might be like an employee of the builder, who may or may not even be big, like, I'm not saying that all of them are benefit benefiting from that. But at least there's that separation.
Michele 44:10
Right. So, let's move a little bit forward now, because I want to talk about another aspect of this, which I think has developed and is continuing to develop and is an interesting so that's the client builder type relationship. But now when we're looking at the types of communities that you're supporting, you're not just supporting custom, like full big custom builders, you are supporting them for certain, but you're also supporting community builders. And by doing both, while there's this underlying Z Domus process it has to be tweaked because one is about volume and one maybe is more about depth, right because you're having to choose at a deeper level or a higher level. More intensely than some of the others that maybe have a little bit more standard packages, or, you know, here are some of the options that you can choose from. So, I want to talk for a minute about the differences, you know, some of the differences between those two kind of models, because each of them could be, you can set up a business model, doing what you do for either one of those independently, and only work on communities or only work on custom, you have chosen, at least for right now, to have kind of arms of your business that focus on both. So you have some of you are designers that are focused a little bit more on the custom building side, and some that have a specialty more on the community side. And so, let's talk about the differences between the two, because then I want to talk about the differences between the designers that work on those because or are the skill set of the designers, right, because there is a difference. And the way that we would approach trying to get 50 houses done in a timeframe versus three houses done in the same timeframe. So, talk first and share with us Rose about how you have made the decision and maybe some of the the likes and the likes and dislikes the how they're alike and how they're different from from those two aspects.
Rose Zefferino 46:19
Yes, so I, it's interesting, because obviously, my background, I've done both, so I've worked for community builders, and then custom. And my life in Pennsylvania has been custom home building. So, I definitely, actually, my first client did both. That's why I think I initially started because I was like, I can do both, because I know both. And then the custom part of the business actually grew faster, less volume, but higher end homes, again, more depth, like there's more, there's the longer relationships with each client. And then more recently, the community level, communities have had increased as well. So, there's definitely a different skill set and a different approach to design, there's a lot of, you know, when you when we go into a community, let's say there's 60 homes in the community, there's a there's a lot of design work that we work with the builders in the beginning to create the standards to create the packages to create options for everybody but and programs within different manufacturers so that we can offer. And we try to at least with every builder kind of create like whatever their identity is, we want to be able to show it in whatever we offer as packages so that it's not like every builder showing the same base package, like so they're a little different. You know, we have this one builder that we work with who's this style, like you go on hit their website, in its modern farmhouse like that its black windows, white siding, black roof, like it's chrome and matte black and like, that's their look. So, there's no way that we're going to not introduce something like that in the packages that we offer. Otherwise, it totally disconnects with their their image. So, there's a lot of work in the beginning. Before we even meet a client, and then when we when we meet with each client, the relationship is much shorter, they come to my showroom, they come maybe two or three times they get all their selections done. I have all of the samples here that they can touch and feel and, and, and, you know, make sure that they they enjoy. And there's very little outside of that. So we find we actually joke, we actually enjoy that process too, just because you know, how many? How many different ways can we combine this to make it feel fresh and different? So that's one and it's much more volume. In that case, the relationship is again, only probably a couple weeks old. And then they we get the full package of everything all at once and hand it off to the builder.
Michele 46:48
Because there are a lot of decisions that are already made in those community builds. So, then it's a small, like you said it's a smaller version of selections. They're kind of limited, because you've already done the pre work to figure out what goes well, what's within the budget of the home. That timeframe they make their selections. So how does that compare to the mark? I mean, I know but share with us. How does that compare to the more custom? I'm sure it's more than two meetings in three weeks.
Rose Zefferino 49:47
I mean, those meetings can be. I mean, they're, I can't even there's probably 10 meetings that are your initial meetings with them. Like initial meetings with a vendor of some sort. And then there's like all the meetings in between. So the relationship is much longer the relationship with the builders much longer with each client to so the build process is longer. And you're not, the expectation is not that you're going to get everything done before they put a shovel in the ground. So right, you are designing the home as the home is being built with and obviously with timelines in mind. But there is way more, there's actually no, like, you can't assume anything in those cases, because every decision needs to be thought through. I mean, some decisions are really easy. But like there are there's just there's no assumption that they're going to want. You know, even that, like the architect’s plan is exactly what they wanted, you know. So there's a lot of different discussions like that. So it definitely is more relationship driven, in that in those in those builds, then maybe even in the community side, because it's less of a less of a timeframe.
Michele 51:11
So let's talk for a minute then about, so I'm certain and we don't have to get into this. But there are different pricing models for those two, like you're not going to have the same pricing model to do a community build as you would a custom build. I mean, we all know that. All right. So let's talk though, in our last little bit of time together about the difference in skill set to manage those I know that you did some predictive index work on these positions, but I think Eileen Han, and then you also, and who's been on the podcast, I will link her some of her podcasts on here. But so you worked with her to do the predictive index, and to really look at the position of what is needed, from a personality skill set a natural ability to handle customer versus community driven work, tell us a little bit about what you found. I'm just different needs to be able to support a really fast paced volume driven work versus more detail and more, more time to handle that type work.
Rose Zefferino 52:24
Yeah, so I think so for a designer who's going to do community design, there's a ton of emphasis on attention to detail, because there's so much translation of information, a meet, like they're, the volume of information that needs to get transferred is fast and needs to be completed all like all at once. Otherwise, you I mean, we could derail a construction timeframe, if we don't do that. So there was a ton of attention to detail. And probably less emphasis on like, extrovert, like so less, like me, you know, need to have relationship building. But at the same time, you know, obviously, I want somebody who's pleasant to write to see a good communicator, it's just a short, right, but because the timeframes are short, you're not building lasting BFF friendships. And then but that on the custom side is going to be more important because there is a there is a level of release, like beyond your skill set of being able to know that these two things go well together. It's the how you communicate the information to the customer, so that they're not feeling overwhelmed by every decision that they're going to have to make. And having it's a lot more. There's a lot more need for a relationship, whether in a professional or otherwise, that it just needs to be a good relationship, because there will be times where, you know, we call it like, it's decision fatigue, like they just at a certain point, if you're spending two years building your home, like you're done, like you don't want to make another decision. And there has to be that trust with your designer so that myself or any one of my employees can make that decision for you knowing all the other decisions that we've made in the past. So there is of course, is still a need for attention to detail just because of you know, being able to read mine, right? Yeah. So like, that's always going to be something that's going to be a giant skill set that I'm going to look for, but probably more so in the future community. That's probably my number one in the community. Then, in the custom would be more of that relationship. Communication.
Michele 55:00
Yes. They also have to have, I would think, on the custom a bit more of a calming effect. they've got to have one ability there soon. And a call, because things are changing all the time, like you said, you are managing the design, while it's being designed. Whereas in the community side, many of the design decisions have already been made, there may be tweaks, but it's quicker, faster, you know, and more limited. So there's some, you certainly have to have a calming skill, but not at the same way that you do with the decision fatigue and the just the length of time that it takes to get through the build.
Rose Zefferino 55:40
And I think there's, just so many more variables, especially if we're working with renovation, like, we could plan an entire kitchen with certain dimensions, and they open up a wall, and we can't do something, and you just have to have the adaptability to just sort of say, nope, we can, we can do the same, don't worry, we're not, you're not going to lose anything, we're just going to move around these couple things. And, you know, the overall, you know, function of your kitchen, or whatever it might be is not going to be is is not going to be affected, you know, like just and I think it gives them comfort that we've probably seen a lot of it, where we were able to just sort of switch gears and make it work again, we're recently finding a lot in the custom where we have to find alternatives because of material delays. And so we're doing a lot of reselect, probably elections, there's a ton of back orders, or even just dropped lines as we get to the end of the year, that that we need to work through. And you have to be that person where a customer understands like that, you have to be able to be the person where you can help them make that decision rather than them feeling like they've lost something. Because they didn't get the original design that they're looking that they were hoping for.
Michele 57:00
So that brings me to one other point, have you addressed your pricing to allow for all the re-selects, and all the reworks? And all the going back that COVID is now creating? Or is that something that you're looking to do as you move in? Because that's not going to stop? Right? I think we're going to see this going on. And that's why it costs more now, not just materials, but to go back and reselect. Like if your pricing was flat fee based on doing it, now you're having to go back and rework and we see that that might happen. How are you taking that into account going forward?
57:41
I would say that it's probably been something that over the last six weeks has been like, we feel it more. So I have not adjusted anything. But as I'm looking into 2021, I'm definitely considering it. I've also had conversations with builders about saying that at this point, alternatives might not be the answer either. Like I'm running out of options for alternatives to
Michele 58:06
Right, so at some point we have to wait.
Rose Zefferino 58:08
Yeah, at some point, like, you know, I literally just had one before I went on zoom with you that it's just at some point, like, I'm, they're going to sacrifice something if I if I talk to them about a change, and we're just going to have to wait. I'm starting to have those type of conversations before the conversation is okay, well, if you're going to ask us to have all these alternatives, then we're going to need to get paid for that extra time. So I would have started the groundwork. So I'm saying that, you know, we're, I'm happy to choose, you know, polished nickel boss, it's not available and in one cut in one company and I can get another one, I'm happy to have that quick, that quick run around. Like, that's easy. But when we're selecting hardwoods and tiles and like that's like huge color scheme, differences that that will affect and take a lot take a lot more consideration than just, let's just switch out a product. Right. And we are I am starting to have those conversations with those builders that are outside of scope. Yeah, that this is creating a lot more work and a lot more rework for us and, and honestly, I think I approach it sometimes about doing I mean, it's the truth, I don't want the customers to continue to feel like they're not there's they're sacrificing something or they're losing something when they make an alternative. So if I don't feel comfortable that the alternative is what they want. I don't want to offer that as something.
Michele 59:38
Right, right, though that's not after a two-year build and then you get it and then you get in and go. Well, we had to go ahead and finish the house but it's nothing that we wanted. Nobody wants to feel that nobody wants that.
Rose Zefferino 59:51
Like there's too much. There's too much at stake. And for a lot of these people, I mean community are custom. These are their dream houses. These are the houses that they've saved. Get up at night look going on Pinterest in house look at, like they've done all their research on that stuff and eat, you know, for a one-week delay, it might be worth it, or even a one month delay in the grand scheme of things.
Michele 1:00:13
So Rose, as your business has grown, and it moved from more than just rows, two rows in a team and we still have room to grow and move as, as you desire. What are you doing to keep your company in a profitable status like, and not just money, right? But we're talking about profitability of everything of selections of choices and working? What do you look at? And how were you focusing on making sure that your business stays healthy?
Rose Zefferino 1:00:41
So, to take your phrase, I'm trying to make sure that the right butt's in the right seat. Yeah. So I do a lot of analysis of whether or not I've positioned everybody in where they can succeed and where they can, where they can grow. Definitely is probably more so this year than other years have looked at pricing structure just to make sure, because we do deal with so many, you know, the volume versus non volume and making sure we're accounting for time. So I'm spending a lot more time asking my designers to track their time, so I can get a better sense of how we should be billing, especially for future builders. Right. I have been probably, again, in the last maybe month and a half, two months have had a lot of opportunities come to us in terms of new clients and I have been not, we've been selective in who we, you know, present proposals to and who we kind of pursue, but it's also with the idea of, because we have I have those two sides of the business, I need to just make sure that we can manage that. And I can manage that. So it's it's creating more better systems to make sure, you know, I'm looking, you know, we're working together about whether or not it's time to, to think about a higher again, like so there's, I don't want just hiring somebody to be the solution, because that's where I'm not going to be profitable. So I think I do that, again, it's just more working on the systems that we're continuing to work on to see if there are any automated processes that can be taken care of. Before we before you know, I consider that there's and there's another person in here, but I, I put a lot of weight on myself to make sure that my employees have a healthy work environment, they know that they have a job. So like I don't take that lightly at all. So there's a lot of self-reflection in the decisions that I make for future builds that I don't overwork or Oh, you know, over commit to something that we can't deliver.
Michele 1:03:08
Yeah, you do a really good job of caring for your employees. You really do. I've been very impressed with your thoughtfulness as you, you know, we the emails, we get back and forth where you'll brain dump. I love them. I love your brain dumps but
Rose Zefferino 1:03:24
yeah, but they're 11pm like, Oh my gosh, so what do I do now?
Michele 1:03:31
But I will say this, I you know, my whole Aim With Intent. Everything I've talked about is ownership, intention. Profit doesn't happen by accident. It's about taking the step to sit and look at it. And you do that you don't just look at I think the thing I love is you have a very, I guess maybe is the word circumspect. Have you look around the entire thing? So you're looking at how to help your employees, how to manage your employees, how they work together, company culture, we've had those conversations you're looking at. So that would be like what I would consider profitability of employees and workspace right? You strive to make it a healthy place for people to come. They're spending a lot of time there. You have focused a lot on we've dug into your numbers, and it's time to dig into them some more and to really look at as we project forward, what does this look like in the new landscape of how we're working and selecting and doing these things? Are we making the money we need to make in the way that we need to make it like, is this still good? Or do we need to tweak it, we should all be doing that. You are also very good. Like you said, looking at yourself, how do I manage how am I leading? What am I putting forth and you know, one of my big goals for you is to give you a little bit more personal time. We're still working. We're still working on that and you don't have it yet.
Rose Zefferino 1:04:58
I said just to be able to stay Get on the couch for like an hour.
Michele 1:05:02
Yes and do nothing, I want you to twiddle your thumbs. And yet, but I'll say one of the other really exciting aspects of what you've created, the reputation you have in the work that you've put out Rose is that there are lots of opportunities coming your way. And diverse opportunities coming your way. And so I'm seeing that from a lot of my designers that opportunities are now presenting themselves maybe different things than they thought of before. And so I also really appreciate your attention to not just jumping, you know, I always say that we want to say the best Yes, not yes to just anything to your point. And I love how you're being very reflective and careful. And even what you say yes to, because the opportunities are there, but they may not all be yours.
Rose Zefferino 1:05:52
Yeah, and it's, it's this, that's difficult for me because I just in in, I just want to be able to help like all these people, like, I don't mean that to be like, you know, whatever, but it's just, I want to be able to do this, it's just that like, I don't want to do it, if I can 100% know that I have everything behind it to support whatever I say yes to, because we'll fall flat on our face. And I don't, I don't want that to be I don't want that to be the reputation for sure.
Michele 1:06:27
You know, that's the same thing that I do. I think in my business, when I'm looking at, like you help people design homes and design their living spaces, I help people design their business. And it's that same kind of thing, I don't want to work with 1000s of people that I can't manage, and, and help, I would rather work with smaller amounts of people where I can go deep and really give them you know, the assistance and just like you are looking for somebody to kind of alright, I just need to get this out and have somebody like Michele, um, you know, on the right track, where am I going here? That's the same thing your clients are asking you and your team to do for them. They're saying, I like these things, do they go together? Right, we're doing the same things. We all are in our businesses. And so that's part of growing is figuring out what is your bandwidth, and not just bandwidth to serve the client, but the minute you don't serve the client, you're not serving rows, and you're not serving your team. Right. So well, I have loved this conversation. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm just as Jeremy, you're welcome. Just a different approach of how to look at design, we didn't even touch on the fact that you offer furnishings plans and things like that, you know, in some cases going forward. But the primary focus is on that builder support, which then also becomes client support. And I love that. So thank you for sharing the nuances of that a different way of approaching interior design, from the build all the way up, and then even just the business model, I think is so fabulous. And so I really just appreciate you letting us dig into that a little bit. Thanks, Michele. I can't do it without you. Well, you already doing it without me. We're just we're just making it making drinking and you better making it better and shooting for the stars. So I just a little bit different aim, then then we get first. Because I think we've hired a few of these people since we've been together. Yeah, I mean, I pretty sure it's all of them.
Rose Zefferino 1:08:32
Yeah, I mean, I pretty sure it's all of them.
Michele 1:08:35
came to me and you had a part time. And now we are looking for more. But yes, working and you're doing a great job. And that's the thing, I remember you saying to me, I need to hire, I need to grow, I need to know what the right person is in the next person. But I need to know that I can afford it. And I need to know that I can keep them I don't want to hire and then have to let somebody go because I wasn't prepared. So help me get prepared so that I can do it. And so you've done a great job.
Rose Zefferino 1:09:01
Thanks!
Michele 1:09:03
You're welcome. Well, you have a great day. And thank you again for sharing. Thank you, you too. Rose, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your journey and pulling back the curtains a bit so that we can see the detail behind the execution of your business model. building businesses is not easy. And while we all have to do things that are not our best drink sometimes when we find that thing that we love and where we Excel, you know really focusing on it. Design takes many forms. I would love to assist you in building your unique strengths and values into your business model. Check out our work with me page at ScarletThreadConsulting.com and then sign up for a discovery call. My team and I help you streamline and move forward faster than you would be able to do alone. Profit is a Choice, and it doesn't happen by accident.