168: How to Hire an Ops Person for Your Design Firm
Michele 00:00
Hello, my name is Michele, and you're listening to Profit is a Choice. Joining me today on the podcast is Kelcee Sparks. Kelcee is the Director of Operations and Success for my company. And we've been together for almost a year. And so we're going to talk about what it's like to hire an operations person, why you need one, and actually how to hand off the work that sometimes can be very difficult to let go up. So I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Michele 00:34
Every day, empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company financial health, and enjoying the rewards of reduce stress and more creativity. With my background, as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses in the interior design, industry, educator, and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry, to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line, and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to Profit is a Choice.
Michele 01:08
Hey, Kelcee, welcome to the podcast.
Kelcee Sparks 01:10
Hey, Michele, thanks for having me,
Michele 01:12
Just so everybody knows you are my Director of Operations and Success, which I love the success part. You work with me, behind the scenes and with everybody on Team Scarlet Thread. But you also work directly with my clients, providing strategy calls and accountability calls in between some of their main calls with me. And what we're going to focus on today is really talking about handing off delegating, bringing in kind of that integrator position into a company, because you and I, of course, we are working with our clients all the time to do that. But we've seen the need in that as well. I do want to point everybody back, there was a podcast I did and I'll link it and it was talking about delegating, not dumping and how to really, how to really set yourself up to delegate Well, we're going to take a little bit different tact as we look at that topic today. And we're going to look at kind of the mindset that the owner needs to have it right, and kind of how do we let these things go? How do we set ourselves up for success? And how do we overcome maybe the fear that somebody is going to take our business from us if we give away too much? Before we do that, though, Kelcee, tell us a little bit about your background. One of the things that you said to me in our pre conversation was your whole job has been delegating for others. And so the delegation is easier for you than perhaps someone where that has not been the trajectory of their business. But share a little bit about what you have done prior to working with Scarlet Thread.
Kelcee Sparks 02:52
Yeah, so prior to starting my own business, I worked in corporate America as a project manager and a business manager for all sides of businesses, I worked for the government, I worked in medical practices, I worked for insurance agents, and I helped them run their businesses. So I've always been the person kind of behind the CEO or the leader of the company, who is making sure everything's getting done, who's taking their big ideas and breaking them down into small chunks and delegating that work to other people. So when it came to my own company and delegating, I have had an easier path to success because I understand how it works for someone new, I'm sure that the thought process is much different than mine things that I've been working in that space delegating for others for 15 years.
Michele 03:41
There are two books that I just want to make mention of and Kelcee, if you have another one, feel free to throw it in. But one is E-Myth Revisited, and the entrepreneurial myth where Michael Gerber talks about the difference between like that visionary CEO role and then the manager role. And then in Traction, where the difference is that visionary and the integrator, which both have to do with kind of somebody running the company, setting a vision, setting a direction, and somebody else behind them, if you will, standing in that that next position, integrating making sure that that I that big idea is put down that strategy plan is now implemented, if you will, with goals and metrics and follow through and that the right people are on the team doing the right things, making sure it gets done. Can you think of any other books right off the top of your head?
Kelcee Sparks 04:37
Those are the two main ones. Yeah, Traction is for sure my favorite one. That's kind of where I really honed in on how my skill set would work with other businesses and how I could come in and be that person who I love being that behind the scenes person who gets to let you and assistance work in your zone of genius. While I make sure that all of the big plans you have for your business are happening,
Michele 05:04
Because you're working in your own zone of genius when you do that. Okay, so those are the two books, we'll link those in the podcast notes as well. Let's start by talking about kind of the role of integrator or operations. Because I know that that is something that we're working with a large number of our clients on is helping them determine when they need an ops person and what the ops person in their company is going to do. And then we're working with them on how to hire that position and how to transition to that position. So talk a little bit about what an ops position might look like, like what is it that that position would do in a firm, and then let's talk about after that, how to know when we're ready for that.
Kelcee Sparks 05:52
So I think what's always cool about these ops positions is that it's different for everyone, because you're truly coming in to complement the genius of the CEO that you're working for. So there could be times when you're doing marketing, there could be times when you're doing day to day project management, you might be looking for a new hire to support the business, you might be talking to the clients to make sure that everything is okay with them doing check ins, it's really different for everybody, depending on what the CEO of the company needs help with most.
Michele 06:25
You know, it's true, because I think at different stages in my business, when I have had people come in to support me, the needs were different. And certainly as my business has grown and morphed and changed, just like everybody else's, my needs have as well. And it's interesting, from the outside looking in my business model seems very simplistic. You know, Wow, she's a business coach, how hard can that be? You have a couple of calls with people, and you're done. But you know, on the back end, there are a lot of people on my team, making things work from automation workflows, to really making sure that we support our clients. Well, to the podcast to social media, I mean, the list is ongoing. And so there is there's a lot that is always happening. And because I'm a Maximizer, I tend to always go Oh, can we go do this? Can we go to that? Can we go through this. And one of the things that I was really looking for when I hired you were coming up on a year now, I was looking for somebody that I could give very high level direction to who could understand come in, take some time and really understand my business. But I could give some high level direction too. But I didn't need to be involved in every last decision. Because I just didn't have the bandwidth. And you when when I got your resume and looked at it compared to the others, I think I told you, some of the things that interested me was that you had you had a broad skill set, but project management and you had an engineering mind, but you had a creative mind as well. And so you had kind of that left brain right brain thing going the same way that I did. The other piece that I loved about what you said, and I think this plays into one of the questions that we're going to answer is you wrote in, when you were filling out the form of for the interview, you love supporting people you love, not going to say being in the background, but you didn't need to be the one out in front running with the flag. Your goal was to support that person. And you had found that that is actually what brought you joy. And that mattered because when I looked at another resume that came in from my ops position, it was they wanted to be out front carrying the flak. And so I say that because one of the hesitations that I see and that you see even outside of our industry is that fear of hiring that operations position or that integrator position because they're going to come in and take over my business. Right and that that was that was a big piece of why I chose you over the other candidate who actually had some interior design background was because her comment I don't know what she was thinking but her comment was that she you know kind of wanted to be in front and kind of take over and I thought okay, well you use you told me that so thanks for that heads up and honesty but you're not the one I'm hiring and looking for this particular position. So tell me a little bit about Are there other people Kelcee that that want to be in those support positions?
Kelcee Sparks 09:49
Absolutely. I think there are a ton of people who would love to take on that role and don't have the desire to like you said be out front be the face of it. Think that we have this unique skill set that can take your big ideas, your visionary dreams and pull them down into bite sized pieces, organize them. And that's what makes me happy every day, I'm excited to wake up every day and open up my Scarlet Thread Consulting information and do just that and be able to come back. First of all, I know I'm saving you time, I know I'm helping you create a more efficient business. I know I'm helping you provide your clients, better customer service and better information. And that's what really sets my soul on fire. And I know that there are people out there just like that.
Michele 10:38
Because you have a lot of friends that are like that, too. Right? Right. Yeah. And, you know, and what I love, I remember even talking to my husband, oh, gosh, 15-20 years ago before some of these books came out and saying to him, because he has done a lot of work in startups and on software development. And so they'll start up and then the company gets bought, and then he goes to work for large company works out his contract starts up another. So he's gone through this probably three or four times. And I remember us standing back. And always we were always looking at like the number one and number two in the company were like the number one is kind of dreamy, and visionary and out there. But the number two was the one that stepping in there and going, let's get it done and managing the details of some of it. So we had already recognized that pattern of leadership and management, if you will, by looking at other companies before the books came out. So that when the books came out, and I read it, we've all gone through it. And if you've been in business long enough to grow a firm you recognize you can do at all, but your business will stay small. Because you can only do so much, right? There's only so much time in the calendar. And so if you want to do more, you have dreamed of doing more, or people are calling you more, you have to solicit help to be able to get that done. Why do you not that there's not a very real fear of somebody coming in and taking over your business. And we've heard, we've heard that we've heard the nightmare stories of I hired this person, and they came in and learned everything and then they walked away to compete against I mean, we've heard it. But we also know a lot of success stories, especially even in our client base where they're like, Oh my goodness, I hired the right ops person, and it has revolutionized my business in my life. Number one outside of the the very real fear of somebody taking it, let's say that they're not command to take it. What do you think creates that fear Kelcee in handing off some of the work?
Michele 10:58
So one of the things I talk a lot with your clients about on our calls is your business is like your baby. And I can remember walking my kids in to the daycare the first day and thinking, I'm handing my kids, they're obviously not going to take my children, but I'm handing them off to people. And just, I guess, hoping that everything's gonna be okay. And that's what it can feel like with your business, when you've worked to grow it from the ground up. It's like you're handing your business to someone and having to just kind of hope that it's going to be okay, but I know when I chose a daycare, I looked at a million I talked to a bunch of people. That's exactly what you're going to do. When you hire somebody, you're going to interview a lot of people and you're going to understand exactly who they are and what they're about and what their skill set is and where their heart is coming into it. Because that's that's what's really important. So the fear is absolutely reasonable and understandable if it is your baby. And as you know, she has something here. When you get to that point, it's important to do.
Michele 12:39
I know that I actually felt less fear with you than I have in the past. But I think it's because I had had some opportunities to hand off. Not saying I still didn't feel some but I felt less with you than I had in the past. Because I had been through different cycles over the years of having people in different roles. And I had Paige, already on my team who is going to be on the podcast in the next little bit. And she was working out really well. And so I already knew what it looked like to hand off a large chunk. I mean, she does all of my production pieces of the podcast. And so I already knew that as the Director of Podcast Development that she was handling those things for me. So now it was now who do I how do I find the right person to help me if you will steward Scarlet Thread Consulting because I don't even see it all as mine. I see it as information that we have that we are stewarding that we are trying to handle well and responsibly to hand off to somebody else so that they can do what they do well and hand off and steward their gift of being able to design or to make window treatments or whatever that is for the next person writes, we're all kind of stewarding these gifts in my opinion. And I wanted somebody who understood the mission. Actually not just understood it, but could get behind the mission of Scarlet Thread Consulting, who could catch the vision that was being laid out or help even create some of the vision as we move forward because of the skill set that they brought, who could align with my values and love on my clients. And so I think that is super important as you're looking for this ops person is to first and foremost know who you are as a company, just for any position, but primarily for that position, because then they are going to help make you more of who you want to be. And so you need to be clear on who that is. And we talked about that in the interview, this is who I am, this is my client is is what I do. This is how I do it. Did you find that to be scary? or helpful? or What did you think during that process?
Kelcee Sparks 15:50
I think I thought it was really helpful. I have interviewed before and ask those questions that you freely gave, because I know that I, I know where my passion is. And as soon as you could tell me those things, I knew that it aligned. And I knew that because you knew yourself so well, it was going to be easier for me to get to know you and do the things that I need to do to be helpful. Let's be honest, you didn't hand me a whole business day one, we had a six month eight month we're still working on it plan to transition different things and, and for me to step into different roles within your company to support you. So I think that knowing that you knew yourself really well helped me be able to step in more effectively and support you better.
Michele 16:38
You also know yourself really well in that and you kind of made that comment. And I think that is important like you knew where your genius is, you know what you love to do. But let's talk for a minute, I think one of the things that made our transition easier. And let's be honest, you came in, in the middle of COVID, got COVID right behind it, then we hit the holiday. I mean, I hired you in November. And we had a couple of weeks there of rockiness not for anything that you did, or I did but just the world that we currently are living in that could have derailed us quickly. But I think one of the things that kept us moving forward from my I'd love to hear if you think the same or if you thought differently. But when I look back on that Kelcee and I think about what kept us moving forward because it would have been so easy at the beginning to go. Great. I heard you all these things are happening. This is not going to work we're done. But instead we came into our relationship, even in the interview process with here's a 30 day deliverable a 60 day deliverable and a 90 day deliverable Do you feel like you can deliver that. So you had that 30, 60, 90 prior to even accepting the position. And I think that having it even though we had those bumps, we knew what we were working towards. And so we could then adjust and pull something from 30 minutes to get to 60 or 60 to 30 or push it out a little or pull it in a little or I got more done here and less than they are we were able to kind of float through that onboarding, which wasn't meant to be so detailed, to be restrictive, but to be advisory in nature and I don't know I felt like that's what we just kept falling back on is we had the same mission vision and values let's just keep falling back on the 30, 60, 90 day plan and we just kept coming back to it for those first few months and just Are we here Are we there? Are we actively moving it? Where is it going that that's what gave me a lot of comfort then you spoke to me with that because as a project manager.
Kelcee Sparks 18:43
I felt like you laid out my first three months as a project for me to work off of so people who are going to step into these roles. That's how we think that's what we want to see. So I knew well Michele already set this project up for me. Yeah, I have COVID I you know, I continue to do what I could during that time, but I knew where my goals were and I knew how to shift milestones already. That's my expertise. You set them for me to begin with, which was super helpful for me.
Michele 19:13
I think the other thing that has worked well for us is us both the one of the first things you said was Michele, we need to meet every week and I was like okay perfect because I had not had that. You know, even with the podcast, it wasn't that needed to meet constantly. We had a workflow we had SOPs setup. I had some SEO piece for you some you're building as you go as we're doing new things. But you said we need to be in constant communication because we are virtual, we're not even in the same state. And so we have been able to do that. And we create agendas, we meet with agenda. So it's interesting, even when it's two of us, I would say we're more structured in the way that we meet and we go through things Here are plans, here's the goals. Here's the deadlines, here are the dates. We use Asana, we're back and forth with each other, we have it all out there. And it allows us to be pretty darn effective. Even when we're not right here together in an office space together,
Kelcee Sparks 20:16
Absolutely. And I think one of the things in this role that CEOs or managers, or whoever's hiring this position, don't always understand this, you're putting us in the middle of your business. So we're seeing things that you're no longer seeing, because you're not that person. So without those weekly meetings, I would sit here with all of these ideas and things in my head from what I actually see. And you might not even know that some of the things are happening, because you've trusted me with those processes. So for me, it's really important for you to come to me with new ideas every week instead of 100, once a month, but also for me to have time to come to you and say I saw this happen 30 times, what can we do to make that work better next time?
Michele 20:57
All right, so let's go there for a second. Because one of the things that I also was looking for in the person that I hired was somebody who could not just take direction, but who could equally give input and be part of a forward strategy. Like I didn't just want a Yes, man. I remember one time, someone wanted me to come work for their company. And she, she honestly said, it's still gambling. She said it but she said it. She's like, I surround myself with people who tell me Yes. I don't like people to tell me no, that shuts down my creativity. Okay, well, after I picked my jaw up, because you know me well enough, I'm kind, but I'm very direct. And I said, then I do not believe I am the person that you want to hire, because I really don't I am aware he kind of worked together. So she should have known. Like, you should know me better than that. I'm not I will never be a yes. person. Like, I'm not going to come in and tell you yes. And yes, yes, is the real answer. But if the answer is no, I'm going to tell you, I'll tell you kind of like, I'll tell you gently, I'll give you three ways around it. But I'm going to be honest, until you know. So I remembered that. And I make sure that I don't want to hire somebody who's just telling me what they think I want to know that will never help me get better. Right? And so I love that. And it didn't happen immediately. I don't think you felt like day one, I can come in and tell you what I see. Right? And I think you came in and you took some time to really look at what was happening. And then you started I started saying, Do you have any advice? What are you saying? And I think you saw that there was an openness that you could share that, like even today you made a comment, you're like, I hope you're not going to take the show. I'm like, just say it. And then you said it. And I was like yeah, you're absolutely right. That's cool. Let's do it. Let's add it in there. But finding your way to say, I think we can make this better. And here's an here's how that can't be easy when you're first starting. But I do think that in that exposition, having the ability not only to take direction, but to give feedback and input to make things better. That's really what we want in that role.
Kelcee Sparks 23:13
Absolutely. And I think I've seen it all, I've seen it all of us being in this role. Some people don't want to feed back, it's definitely a shift to get to the point where you're going to accept that feedback. But when you're ready to hire this ops position, I think that that's a shift that CEOs I know I've had to make it to need to address and kind of their mindset because that person is in your business, that person is seeing your business. And when you find the right fit, when you find the right person, they want the same thing do you do? I don't ever bring you something that I don't think it's going to help you reach the goals that you've set for Scarlet Thread Consulting. And just because you don't always tell me Yes, I love that idea doesn't mean I'm not going to keep bringing them because I see it doesn't mean you are able to and your position. So I just think that that's a mindset shift. And I yes, person is definitely different than an operations person.
Michele 24:09
And you know, sometimes when I even I now run a lot of my ideas, but most of them by you. And you have the freedom in our relationship and in the business to say, I think that's a great idea, or Oh, I don't know about that, or what if we did this and I think I think for me, that is the beauty of having that integrator ops role is your eat coming at it, sharing your viewpoint, your vantage point, and even if it's not 100% what Person A or Person B wants. It's that that sharpening of iron versus iron between the two that comes out beside what they call the mastermind, right that that third mine that is developed from the two coming together that creates an even better idea than with each could individually and so that I think that more than anything thing has made me excited because Absolutely, I have a business coach. But that's also different than having somebody who is ingrained into the details inside your business, you look at it and see things that I don't see, you meet with some of my clients at a time that I'm not meeting with them. So you're hearing and seeing their needs in a way that I don't, you are seeing broken links in my system, sometimes that I don't see. And I think it's also that is the beauty of having a second set of eyes watching out for all that's being built without the weight of all of that being on my shoulders to direct everything.
Kelcee Sparks 25:40
And I love watching your interior design clients hire operations managers, because they are so creative. And operations managers are coming in with a different thought process. And getting to watch them work together is just so neat to meet with coming from different directions, but going working towards the same thing. It just makes me really happy when interior designers are ready to take that step and have somebody who thinks a little differently to help guide them to the next level of their business.
Michele 26:10
So let's talk a little bit more about the 30, 60, 90 day plan, perhaps the owner being very clear on who they are and what they want to do and where they want to go and what the role entails. What are some other things that we can do in advance or put in place from either side, either from the ops person coming into the business or from the business owner? What else can we do and put in place to create an opportunity for success? Because I know you have also worked in this role and other environments that were not so successful. And I felt like ours has been a growth process. But I think it's been extremely successful, like I consider you very dear to my heart, right? It's even outside of business. And I think that's something that we both work towards. And so what have you seen that that creates an environment for success, if any of the listeners wanted to consider this.
Kelcee Sparks 27:09
Effective communication and open communication, I think that from both sides of it have to be willing and ready for that. I think that when you're walking into a role, and you're taking on some big jobs and someone else's business, you have to be willing to over communicate, and make sure that you're giving all of the information you possibly can about what you're doing, that's going to build trust that's going to build, I think that our friendship helps us to be able to be more successful together. Because I don't hesitate to tell you, I screwed up, I don't hesitate to tell you, Hey, I think that I needed this from you. And we got busy and didn't do it. I you know, I think that that has really helped us to work well together. And I think having a project management system is crucial. We don't use our project management system together the same way that lots of businesses use their project management systems to manage projects, but it's still the backbone of our whole, our whole working relationship, there's pretty much nothing we do that doesn't go in there. So I think having that plan set up either the Operations Manager bringing that plan in with them, if the business doesn't already have one, or the business, having something already set up that you can work together to figure out how you're going to use together. I think both of those things are really, really important.
Michele 28:33
I would agree with that. And I think it all goes back to what you said a minute ago, it's knowing that we have the same end goal in mind. And so that, therefore, when communication is on or off, or you know, hey, we need to talk about this, or did you forget that or I don't know what like today you sent me something with option two, and I wrote back okay, where's option one? Like, yeah, but I didn't hesitate. And it was just because it was too large. And it got called up in a filter and didn't make it through. You wouldn't have known that on your side. If I didn't tell you on my site, you'd had no way to know. And so just not being afraid to say like you said like, and I'm quick, I messed that up, I dropped that ball, I forgot. And you're quick to do the same. Again, knowing that we have the same end goal. I think it also helps me when you remind me sometimes, Michele, I'm not trying to be you. I'm not trying to take over your business. But here's what I am trying to do. And not that I think you have to keep saying it I certainly know it. But I think that even just sometimes making comments that I'm here to support from the other person can put the business homeowner or the business owner at ease. Again, having a clear job description and but let's talk about how to create that job description because you made the comment earlier that it can be different for each business owner and I would agree with that one ways I'll share how I kind of tell them to do it. And then I'd love to see if you have some ways to add to that. One of the ways I usually teach in the Aim With Intent under the Align Your Team is two things. Number one, when the owner of the company if you're doing things and you think I hate doing this, and I wish I didn't have to do it, or I wish I could never have to do this again, or this is sucking me dry and creativity or taking me away from what I think I really want to be doing. Make note of those things, write them down. And the next thing is, if you can really sit back and identify what we call your queen bee role like who this is in the book clockwork by Mike Michalowicz and I'll add that to the list. But in Clockwork, he talks about how to be able to take like a four week vacation how to work your way into vacations and time off. And one of the things that he encourages you to do is find out your queen bee now, if you were the queen bee, what is it that you need to do that nobody else can do, and then make and protect time for that. And then let's see how to offload the other pieces and parts. And so I really encourage those in our coaching program to understand their queen bee role, define it for their business, write down what they love to do, and what they want to do and what they don't want to hand off what they want to protect theirs to do. And then make the list of everything else that they're either willing to hand off or hope they never have to do again. And then we can look at the what they hope to never have to do again and all that list and we can start to create an opt roll along with other roles that may come out of that it may be more than just an ops role. But we can start to pull something out of that. What else would you add to it as they're trying to define this role?
Kelcee Sparks 31:44
I think that that that is how I I start just like you teach, obviously, is when I talk to your clients, I start with what do you do right now? And your task was what? Then like you said, separate it? What do you not want to do? What do you think you have to keep what those types of things. One of the things that I think is super, super important is making sure that you also share it with your ops person when you're doing as your job description, what comes out of it for you. So I can ask you every single Monday when we meet, what else can I take from you, maybe we can automate that piece of it somehow, maybe we can. So that person is going to be able to come in with ideas. So not only having theirs, but really having yours from whatever you come up with in this process. When you go through it to help them understand they may come in and say well, let's take those two things off, we can automate that they're not personalized. And then that's two less things you have on your list. So I think both of those things are important.
Michele 32:43
So I just put out a podcast where you and I went out and did some strategy planning for my business. And you asked me those questions during that session together, right? That deep dive into the business and you're like, Michele, tell me what do you want your day to look like your week to look like your month to look like? Like what do you want your year to look like if we're looking at the same things, of course that that I asked. But it gave me a chance to sit back and say, you know, I would really rather do some more content creation, or I'd rather have more open office hours. But I don't currently have time for open office hours because I'm having to do these things. We've been tightening up processes. One of the things we talked about and the aim with intent is that ignite your process and that the process that got you here might not be the process that gets you there. And I think you have done a lot with me over this last year to look at I mean we've walked through almost every single part of my process and said how can we make it better? How can we make it cleaner? How can we make it more effective, more efficient, whatever that need might be how do we up level these things? How do we you know and I love that because it's the things that all of us might think we want but don't know how to go do or don't have the time to go effectively do and do everything else. I still stand back now right and i look at everything that you do everything that page says everything that everybody on my team does and realize I used to do every bit of that I couldn't do it all at the level that I am now it's not possible. But at some point I've done every single bit of it and I think that's what makes it easy in some ways and difficult in others to handle. Let me ask you this some here's one of the things I've heard lately because sometimes the tasks that get put on that ops list by some might feel menial, like clean up this list or dude that you know, straighten up this you know in like if they're in an office, maybe it's I need you to make sure that we have all the kitchen stuffs ordered and stacked or because it's part of the process and they are fearful of handing it off to that support position because they think gets to menial. Now it's not like the whole thing is an ops person is not somebody who's coming in to do everything menial. But we all have, I'm going to say lower level tasks on our list me included. And so I asked them, okay, so if the ops person didn't take out that trash and straighten up the kitchen and do these, who would do it? And the owners like, why would? Well, if it's not below you, why would it be below that? Now, you're not doing a whole job description of what we would call those types of tasks. But some of it is just part and parcel to what we all do, would you? Would you agree with that, and what are some ways to make sure that we have a balanced approach, so that we're really hiring the position that we need to hire.
Kelcee Sparks 35:45
So I think, first, those are things that people put on that list to begin with. If you saw me take out the trash every Friday, for three weeks, I know I'm building trust with you, because I'm doing what you ask, then you're going to give me something bigger, we all walk into these positions, knowing that that's what's going to happen, I'm going to start by doing one or two things that probably aren't a huge piece of the business. But that's because you need to know You can trust me. So that's the first thing I would say the second thing that I would say about that is, I don't love every single task I do for you, you know that I tell you that sometimes, and but I also know that they
Michele 36:28
I also ask you that all the time.
Kelcee Sparks 36:33
I also, I also don't hate it as much as I really didn't like working in some of my previous jobs, because you make the environment for me to do it in feel good, feel like something that fits my life and what I'm looking for. So I wouldn't worry less about the tasks you're giving them because I promise, if me and you were in the same place, and you told me to take out the trash the first forever, I would take out the trash, because I know that that's helping you understand who I am and what I'm willing to do for you. And I wouldn't even think why in the world and she having me do this.
Michele 37:07
So you know, we just pulled off an event with almost 40 people. And you and Paige, both jumped right in. And we're setting up, you know, breakfast bars and putting out coffee pieces and parts and straightening up and taking out trash and handing out lunches and cleaning up in the room. And, um, that was right there with you. But you know, nobody ever complained, it was just this is what we need to do to make this a success. Everybody was working together. And it wasn't a anybody was better than anybody else with any of the task. It was just this is what it takes to get it done. Tell us all work together to get it done
Kelcee Sparks 37:44
Exacty. So build trust with whatever tasks you feel like you need to build trust with your operations person for that, remember their skill set along the way as that trust continues to build remember what skills that they have, but maybe you don't. Or maybe you do and you just need support and or maybe someone else on your team needs support from that person who has a unique skill set. So that can be a slow process I've been I've worked with videos where that process was six months process that went a little bit faster with us. But like you said you had had some previous experience. So that whole building trust process that can be six months a year, it could be however long you need it to be and people who are walking into the role that I'm playing for you understand that. And we know that we know that that's a thing. And that's something we're willing to do as part of taking on the position.
Michele 38:34
You mentioned skill set, I do think that one of the things that you and I have talked about is at the beginning, here's what I need you to do, right? These are the things that I can't get to or that are on my list of I don't want to do them or can't do them or can't get to them or whatever. But as we have grown in relationship with each other and understanding of each other's zone of genius. I know, you mentioned you don't like every single thing that you do. And I would say nobody loves every single thing they do in their business. And so we know that's kind of normal. But one of the things that I asked you all the time and Paige and everybody else that I work with, you know all my teams is, tell me what you love to do. Because if it's not what you love to do, and it's not within that, I will find somebody else who loves to do that and take it off your plate so that I can have you do more of what you love to do. And I think that's also important and that ops position is that it may start off with a set of task directives that maybe the owner felt like they needed to get off their plate. But when you can really figure out the zone of genius of that person and let them work in their zone of genius, right, that whole right button the right seat. It's the same for an ops position as it is for a junior designer or an assistant. We want to have the right person doing the right things. But my business moves ahead faster when you do What you're excellent at and I do what I'm excellent at, and then we are already and have been looking for supplemental assistance for the areas that are not your zone of genius are not mine, or that we feel are derailing us from a higher level of work, we are, you know, looking for supplementary resources to jump in and do that. And I think that's important, as well as knowing that the same way that let's say the owner, the CEO, the visionary can't do everything your ops person might not be able to do every single thing you can't like, pick up your whole workload and dump it on them and assume that they're going to be a perfectionist and all of it, right, they they've got their own skill set. And we want to make sure that we can exploit that.
Kelcee Sparks 40:41
Absolutely. And I think you and I talked a lot about that in our interview. So I felt like you didn't have a whole lot of things on me at the beginning that I just absolutely didn't have any skill set to perform, which I was very appreciative of. But I've also been in situations where that happened. So I think it's so important to ask the CEO, from your side of this conversation to make sure that you are asking those questions up front, what are you good at what you know, I don't know that I still don't give you a good answer. When you tell me ask me what I love to do. Because truthfully, in my role, what I love is taking things off of you. So no, I'm not every single thing I do every single day is makes me just the happiest person in the world. But I know that it's supporting you and making your life easier. And that is why I'm here. That's what makes me happy. That makes the job easier. So I think I think knowing those things up front is going to start your relationship, which was what we did off on the right foot and allow it space to change and grow over time.
Michele 41:48
Is there anything else that you can think of that makes hiring this operation or let me back up and ask you this way, when is the right time to hire you. And I've had this conversation on off lately, where we're trying to create some support information, when is the right time to hire an ops person.
Kelcee Sparks 42:06
An ops person like every other person, I think it's always going to be helpful to if you can hire them before you need them. But I can also tell you, most operations people are used to not being hired before they're needed and coming into what feels overwhelming to the business owner and helping them navigate out of that situation. So my I know that you guys know when you need them, I don't think that's a secret, I think everybody feels that they need them at a certain point, just knowing that we're coming in, and it's okay, if it feels overwhelming to you, we're going to help you get out of that. So hiring them, I guess what I'm trying to say is as soon as possible, as soon as you have the budget for it when you know you need it.
Michele 42:45
So let's talk about the ops position as a non billable position in the firm, because that's what stops some people from hiring that role is they may say, I would I think I need to hire a billable role, like another designer and a junior designer, whatever. But sometimes when you hire those Junior designers, and you give them ops tasks to do, number one, it's not the task that is within their zone of genius. It's absolutely not what they love. And it's not within their career trajectory. And so they tend to push push push to try to get out of that or not do it or to ignore it, or it falls by the wayside. I mean, we see that a lot. But when we can hire that ops position and pay that ups position, what it does is it takes all that extra stuff off of the plate of the junior designer, assistant designer, staff, senior designer and the CEO, so that they can do more billable client focused work. And so you actually can make money by hiring that position. Even if it is not fully billable, there could still be some billable portions of it based on what you have to do and the way you've created it in your business. But I want people to not be afraid of hiring that position because it's by and large, a non billable position because what it really does is free you up or free your team up that are billable to be able to do more that
Kelcee Sparks 44:14
Absolutely! I've talked with a couple of your designers ever in the past year who had said we have tripled our billable, available billable hours just by hiring that job. So I think that that's really cool, because there's people are, if they're designers, they're not wanting to do most of that work anyway. And you're opening up a ton of space for more work to come in and you could do more work in the present instead of six months from now. And that's, I think that's awesome. That one position can help you do that.
Michele 44:46
Right? Because again, it creates effectiveness efficiencies, scalability, and it clears off the plate. And you know, I can say this. When we first started I don't think I knew everything. thing that I could hand off, you know, we started this whole conversation with not being afraid to let some things go. I don't think I even thought about the things that I could hand off, I knew some of what we would call low hanging fruit, those were on the 30 6090 day, I'd like for you to do this, this and this. Once you had done all those things, then I realized now you had a basis to be able to do more. And so like you said, even if it started with taking out the trash, which is not what are started with, but even if it did start like that, over time, you start to recognize a skill set, and you're able to hand off more. And so now, I'm handing off things to you and giving you things to do that I would have never thought a year ago, I would have been in a position to do. And you constantly still say to me, and I think this is one of the things that make our relationship kind of cool. Because you constantly say to me, Michele, what can I get off your plate so that you can do what is most important for you. And I love that because it's rare as the CEO, that somebody is coming in and saying, How can I help support you get things off your plate? You know, and by and large, you hear more grumbling, that there's more on their plate. But you come in and ask how do I get it off your plate? But I come to you and say, Kelcee, how do I also help you in your role? Do more of what you'd love? And how do I supplement what you don't love with somebody else who loves to do that? Like how can I hire another person who loves to do it, when we can get that off of your plate, make your own list of what we'd like to hand off. So if I'm handing to you, we sift it through what you love to do. And then let's hire somebody who loves to do what comes off of your list. And I think that creates this symbiotic We both are getting what we want, we both are in an environment that feels enjoyable to work. And that feels like we're, we have to do some things we don't love. But we get to by and large work in an environment that's friendly and fun and open and communicative. doing what we love to do.
Kelcee Sparks 46:59
Absolutely, it's extremely helpful that I feel supportive from you, it helps me and vice versa, it helps me to better support you when I know that. Okay, just because I'm going to take one more thing off Michele's plate doesn't mean it's going to come onto mine, it just means that she knows that she needs more space to do what she loves. I know she needs more space to do what she loves. And we need to find somebody else. She might not be ready in her brain to let that piece go. But I'm going to help her let it go and make sure that it gets taken care of. So that's extremely helpful for me and my role to know that you're willing to give me support, not just keep piling more and more and more.
Michele 47:41
Yeah, yeah, it goes both ways. And I think again, because we both are looking at the bigger picture. And where we want all of us to go, right everybody, including our clients, and we're all kind of working towards that same goal. So as we wrap up, Kelcee, let's kind of recap a little bit of a conversation. The first is, you said, hire an ops position before you need them, which is always the case. But if not, take everything that you don't like doing don't want to do feel overwhelmed with doing whatever, put it on the list. Use that to help create a job description and then create a 30, 60, 90 day plan for hiring all of that know who you are. And you said that hopefully the person you're hiring would know who they are, oh, through a full interview process and really work through those things. And then what do we say onboard them? With all of that open communication? You said?
Kelcee Sparks 48:40
This is a project management system? We can't wait?
Michele 48:42
Yes, yes, yes, yes, thank you having a project management system or allowing them to help bring one to you, if you don't have one implement some form of communication, you also recommend the weekly check ins if not weekly team meeting to even if it's a team of two, I mean, we have a much larger team. But with what we're working on a lot of times, it's it's the two of us. So not to miss that part of the communication. Again, the project management tool, I can't put an exclamation behind that any more than you have. But that's super helpful for us to document what we're working on when it needs to be done and who's doing it. And even if you're using it, we probably use it in some ways. We have projects and in some ways, it's a repository and in some ways, it's task management. But regardless, it is a communication hub, where we can put everything that we can follow along. It's not. We don't necessarily have successors and predecessors and all that kind of Microsoft Project type work going on, but that's not what I do. Your design firms may certainly have more of that type of an environment, but you need the internal communication and then grow with each other. You know, I think that I think hiring somebody that loves being in a support role is what's going to make the difference, you're not certainly not trying to hire a designer and turn them into an ops manager, you're hiring somebody who wants to be an ops manager.
Kelcee Sparks 50:10
Absolutely. And the thing that I tell your clients the most about it is, this person is coming in with a unique skill set that has that kind of works in all industries. So don't count on people who like Michele didn't need, I didn't have an interior design experience before I came into this position. But my skill set works kind of in every industry a little bit different. It's adjusted based on the industry and what the needs are, but just know when you're hiring that person, if they don't have experience in your specific industry, that the knowledge they're bringing is more robust than just a specific industry, and they can apply it for you successfully.
Michele 50:48
Oh, that's a super good point. And in a lot of ways, this person doesn't have to have interior design industry, our industry expertise, because we're not asking them to be a designer, we're not asking him to do that type of billable work. So in some ways, I would say it could almost be better if they don't, if they don't have that aspiration to now go be a designer, if they just love the industry, or love home interiors, and that kind of thing. And then have all that organizational management process management behind them. Perfect. But you're absolutely right. And I'm so glad you made that point, Kelcee, that's not a prerequisite for this job. It might be for some other role in your firm, but certainly not this one. I would care more that they know how to do project management. They understand how to manage people, they understand how to delegate, you know, their the skill set is certainly different. So thank you so much for making that point. Because if not, I think that could feel like something that's stopping us when it really shouldn't. Absolutely. Can you think of anything else to be successful here?
Kelcee Sparks 51:51
I don't think so. I think we've covered almost all of it, I think that this is going to be a role that really does change your business and will help you grow over time. So if that's what you're ready to do, then this role is going to be very helpful.
Michele 52:06
I agree. I also think it's just one of those that you kind of have to roll up your sleeves and say I am committed to trying to work with somebody to make this real work, which means it's going to morph and change over time and not look exactly like it did when we started. And I'm okay with that. And so having it defined enough to get started but flexible enough to adjust is kind of key.
Kelcee Sparks 52:31
Absolutely.
Michele 52:33
Well, Kelcee, thank you so much for joining and sharing a little bit of our journey and having this position more fully defined within Scarlet Thread Consulting, but also sharing with how we are working with our clients to make sure that they know and how to hire for this position and what it looks like and when they're ready. And of course, we have the whole financial side behind it, you know, save your three months and salary, all that good part of it. But I just really appreciate the conversation today. And thank you for making my job so easy.
Michele 53:02
Kelcee, thanks so much for coming on and talking all about the operations position. It is such a pleasure to work with you and to support our clients together. If you if you are listening, and you want help with determining the right time to hire that operations person what that ought to look like Kelcee and I would love to help you and serve you in the Scarlet Thread Consulting coaching program. So feel free to go to www.ScarletThreadConsulting.com and check out the work with me page. fill that out and let's have a conversation. You know, our goal here at Scarlet Thread Consulting is to help you grow your business in the way that suits you best. And so we're just excited to hopefully have an opportunity to chat with you. You know what if we don't plan to be profitable, we will not be profitable by accident. So make the choice to hire at the right time. Profit is a Choice is proud to be part of the designnetwork.org where you can discover more design maybe reaching creative listeners. Thanks for listening and stay creative and business minded.