169: Growing Your Design Business With Your Spouse
Michele 00:00
Hello, my name is Michele, and you're listening to Profit is a Choice. Joining me on the podcast today are Jenny and Ben Slingerland of Black Ink Interiors. Jenny and Ben are clients of mine who have had tremendous growth over the last year. Today, they're going to share their story of how they began working together in the company, how their business has morphed over the years, and how they have their own area of specialty that really makes it all work.
Michele 00:31
Every day, empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company financial health, and enjoying the rewards of reduced stress and more creativity. With my background as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses in the interior design, industry, educator, and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line, and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to Profit is a Choice.
Michele 01:05
Hi, Jenny. Hi, Ben. Welcome to the podcast.
Jenny Slingerland 01:08
Hi, Michele, thank you so much for having us.
Ben Slingerland 01:10
Yes, yes. Hi, Michele.
Michele 01:11
You're welcome. I almost said welcome to coaching. My brain got all twisted out there for a minute even though I told you exactly what we're going to do. So funny.
Jenny Slingerland 01:21
Well, and we because we have a coaching call this afternoon.
Michele 01:25
I know, right? So even though we just made the comment about podcasting, you're just so easy to say the other. Well, I am so excited to have you on and to chat with both of you today you are, you are just awesome people and awesome business owners. And I'm just excited for us to be able to explore a little bit about what you've done, where you've been, and what's gotten you to where you are. Also, I'm excited to hear about where you want to go, you know, and so let's, let's start, Jenni, I think you were the one that started the business, tell us a little bit about how you got started.
Jenny Slingerland 02:00
My first degrees actually, in nursing, I knew I didn't love it when I was in the program. And I just thought I'm just going to power through. And then when I'm done with my nursing degree, I will get an interior design degree because I knew that that's where my passion was. And so I really, I finished the nursing degree, like I said, I, I practice nursing, put myself through school, continued working as a nurse to put my husband through business school. And then once that was all done, it's like, Okay, I think it's time to try this now to actually use my interior design degree. So I worked for custom, a couple of different custom home builders, and kind of got to understand the construction side of the business. And to really understand that Ben, Ben then had his corporate job which moved us about every two years, we were moving, so it wasn't an ideal time, to you know, start up my own business. And so I just enjoyed those years home with my girls, raising them. And then when we finally landed in Arizona, we knew this is where we wanted to stay, and so we said, alright, let's give this a go. So my youngest was in full time kindergarten, and I said, alright, we're going to put this out there. And we didn't know anyone here in Arizona. So there was a lot of, you know, knocking on doors and cold calling builders, and just trying to put myself out there. And I will say it took a minute for the phone to ring, but the hard work and the networking events that I would go to, and, you know, meeting with different builders, even, just for five minutes, you can have five minutes of your time, and it paid off and the phone kind of started ringing and it didn't stop. So I think I really started to hit blocking card. It was it been 2017.
Ben Slingerland 03:47
Yeah.
Jenny Slingerland 03:47
And you joined spring of 2018. Because it was just had gotten to the point of madness, basically, of me sleeping four hours a night trying to do the accounting, trying to do you know, the social media, trying to do the design work, taking care of all the emails, all the tracking all the information, and just was too much. Ben was at a point in his career that was sort of like, well, if we're going to do it, this is a good time, you know, and so we're like, let's, let's give it a go. And so we did it. And yeah, is that is that what you recall? Ben? Is that like, a lot of tears? A lot of, you know.
Michele 04:29
So I'm curious about this. It really strikes me that. So you just did you. How did you determine at that point at the very, very beginning being new to town? How did you determine which builders you wanted to go knock on their door and when you knocked on their door and asked for five minutes, what did you say,
Jenny Slingerland 04:48
You know what, that is such a great question. And what I did was I knew I wanted to work with the top with the best I wasn't going to start low and work my way up. I was going to try to start at the top So I literally for days and days and days researched builders right so I put in luxury Custom Home Builders you know and then I started ranking them because I would click on their website I would look at their projects I would see if they you know seemed in line with mine I looked at their About Me page I wanted to see who they are what they had done, what were their company's core values and I started ranking them on a five star so if it was five star It was like I want to meet these people. If it was four star it's like these are still really good people and then I didn't even bother if it was under three right so it was like three four or five so once I had my list I would make calls and I called one and he said sure I'll meet with you so I call I went in.
Michele 05:52
What did you say when you asked just Hey my name is Jenny?
Jenny Slingerland 05:55
I'm a new interior designer in town I have a construction background and I'd love to come talk with you I'm new to the area and we sat down and he said you know I don't have anything right now he said and what he said but I'll keep you in mind and I said can I ask you a question if I wanted to try to get to know other you know builders or other people in the community that are you know design related, how can I get a hold of them he goes you know what he goes Sub Zero Wolf always has the best parties. He goes call Sub Zero Wolf get on their list for invites and go to their networking events. And I was like that's really cool. And he told me about an architect an architectural magazine that's put out that you can advertise in and that has a lot of the higher end architects and designers in it so I did both of things. I had already registered with ASID to get to know the local design community as well and within a few months he called and said hey I have some spec projects he goes I want to be honest I don't know you yet to know if I can put you with these $5 million custom homes. I don't know how you are with clients, I don't know. He he goes well let's try with some specs. So we ended up doing three spec projects together I did get on that Sub Zero Wolf party list and my goal every time I went was you hand out five business cards and I would walk into this room with hundreds of people literally at these parties. And I was like alright and I would just walk up to people introduce myself and then the doors just started opening and I met one person who knew another person who knew another person and it just came about but I mean you have to put the work in.
Michele 07:42
Yeah you really put yourself out there and no doubt. I think that's interesting just for the listeners, this is something to consider the same way that you looked up builders other people that are looking us up so make sure that about page is really what you're about make sure that you tell people what's important to you either through just the regular content of copy or you know here are our values make sure that the pictures on your site are indicative of the work that you love to do and want to do I hear a lot Oh it's so outdated it's so they don't even do that anymore. Well if that's the snapshot that people see if your work and it's so outdated then they're going to think that's what you can do. So it does take effort to keep those things up because it's the same thing you went looking for which means it's the same thing other people they're going to come looking for.
Jenny Slingerland 08:30
That's such a good point. I hadn't even thought of it in reverse like that. That people are doing the same so we better.
Michele 08:36
You better get out! Exactly. It's true I know I try to not always as great editors Other times, but I tried to twice a year go in and update my website with copy or if there are new words or new challenges, you know, that people are talking about a lot or that I see that I'm solving a lot and so it's just it's just a good point the whatever we go out there looking for other people are coming out, they're looking for us the same way. So just something to consider. So alright, so you start by going out meeting people putting yourself out there networking, that was when we could freely network face to face. And I just hope and pray that that comes back quickly. I miss that so much. But still just really looking for ways to get knee deep in your own area and the interior design architect build kind of arena. So I think that's super important. All right, and then you said that the doors started opening the word started coming. I love how you immediately said let's go to the top. My guess is Jenny that your prior work for the other builder before you moved some of that's what gave you confidence because most people wouldn't walk out of design school, spend a few years nursing or doing something else. And all of a sudden think let's go to the top. I mean I know you're special, but that's not normally.
Jenny Slingerland 09:57
That is true. They were both luxury custom home builders that I worked with those two jobs and so I think you're right it probably did give me the confidence.
Michele 10:07
You can do it. That's what was expected at that level because otherwise I think it could be very overwhelming kind of like that builder said to you I don't know that I can hand you a $5 million client because I have not seen you work so I just don't want anybody out there to think and look some people could just come right out of design school and go to the $5 million and top of the homes but I would say it's not it's not the trajectory that we normally say there's a little bit of there's a lot of work that goes in behind it and you had already done that work in bits and pieces before you had the courage to say let's just go do this on my own.
Jenny Slingerland 10:40
Yeah, yeah that's that is a good point.
Michele 10:43
Yes. Okay, so you're the doors open works coming in you're overwhelmed you're probably sitting on the floor and in the closet working and working around the kids. What was the breaking point that you said I need help and I'm assuming that's the same pivotal moment that Ben was like I think I can be your help.
Jenny Slingerland 11:01
Yeah, Ben, Do you want to take that because I you probably might remember it better I was probably not in a good time if it was like we got to do this but yeah.
Ben Slingerland 11:11
Jenny had hired a contract employee that time who'd been helping a bit as well so she which wasn't completely on her own but certainly the work as it continued to ramp up and new projects came in you know it's hard as you're trying to build new relationships and knock on doors and open up new doors to say no right when someone reaches out says hey, we're ready for you and so I think was one of those situations where we just kept taking work or you know, that time Jenny kept taking work and got to a point where she physically couldn't keep up with it right so we made it made a decision that point like she had said as I was at a point in my career where I kind of would need to make decisions on what I wanted to do for the future and we just said why not and the goal being primarily to help Jenny really help on of the back end kind of processes and you know, the financials and the HR components of the business, some of the logistics and purchasing those kinds of things to remove that from her plate so that she could focus primarily on the client facing activities and continue the networking and bringing in business and so forth. So I joined in I think was April 2018 to just kind of pick up and I had been helping her at nights and evenings and whenever I could and even before that, so I'd already been involved in the business just you know, at a smaller scale so it was just really like hey, let's just jump in with both feet. We talked about the potential risks of that right from a family perspective and financial perspective and I think at the end we just said what's the worst that can happen you know what you know that it doesn't work and I can you know, I have enough experience and skill set where I can go out and get another job right if I needed to locally or wherever so I think that just alleviated some fear to know that like there the downside isn't that great and that the upside was you know was there was a ton of upside so it was the out you know that so the rewards the potential rewards outweighed the risk for sure.
Michele 13:07
I love the fact that you Jenny said that you know, she was working in nursing to put her through school you through school to kind of support the family a little bit while you were taking time to focus but it's so cool that now all of that energy that you both put into attaining that business degree is now benefiting both of you back in this business.
Jenny Slingerland 13:25
Oh, yeah!
Ben Slingerland 13:26
Absolutely. Yeah.
Michele 13:27
That's really cool. So been what was it like, leaving corporate and coming to work for I'm going to say in air quotes your wife I know you guys work differently. I know you do different things. But there's still that she started this whole thing and now I'm coming in to work in a business that she has kickstarted.
Ben Slingerland 13:49
Sure, I'm Jenny's biggest fan. So when, you know that, from that perspective, right? It was just a cool opportunity. And, you know, I get people to do ask that question, right? Like, do me Yes, there are elements of, you know, sort of the corporate life and corporate world that I miss for sure. But at the same time, there are a lot of things that I don't miss. The way I look at it is basically go into work for Jenny and essentially have a family business right, and Jenny is the boss and, 100% so I do look at it that way as well. And, and obviously, you know, we work together all the time, probably too much, but our kids tell us anyway, but I think the idea of being able to be in total control of your, your life, your lifestyle, your schedule, not only for us, Jenny and I, the two of us, but our work schedules, but just for our family. That's probably the biggest motivating factor and one of the things that excited me the most to be able to say hey, let's do this as a family and then we control our destiny, you know, and we can kind of control our lives and how we schedule things and that's so that's a big motivating factor for us is to be in total control and not have to, you know, answer to anyone but ourselves.
Michele 14:58
So when you came in, tell me a little bit about how you the two of you work together to separate this is what Ben's going to do. And this is kind of the areas that that you're going to focus on here's what Jenny is going to do and here's where she's going to focus was it just clear cut you go do design and now you know juggle all the balls back from the office or did you sit down and have a more clear cut conversation about that?
Ben Slingerland 15:22
Well, we sat down and said here that let's sort of list out all the activities that need to get done right in the business and you know, we do reading and kind of listen to other podcasts you know, we've been looking at kind of what types of decisions business decisions organizational decisions, process procedures, you know, all those things as we as we start to list all those activities out it was like well, you take these I got these right and it sort of naturally divided at sort of front of house or client experience activities and sort of back or house and operation activities. So it's we're naturally divided there which makes sense our personalities make sense in that way. Jenny's very much type A networker, very social in that sense I'm much more behind the scenes enjoy being able to just kind of work away without all the fanfare and so forth. So it's sort of naturally divided that way and then of course we brought other team members on to help fill some of the gaps that that we couldn't fill as well.
Michele 16:20
And over time, I'm assuming what I know so because of course we coach together but tell us a little bit about how maybe those roles have morphed over time where again, I still think you guys have it divided front of house back of house, but even some areas that may have shifted or where you've created some overlap. Is there anything that shown up like that for you?
Jenny Slingerland 16:42
I really I find that I really lean on Ben for a lot of some of the more difficult client conversations or you know when that has to happen, Ben how does this email sound Ben, I have to hop on a call can we like role play how this call is going to go because I need to be prepared for it or you know I were just about to hop on a call with the developer that we're working with and I'm you know leaning heavily on him okay is okay I'm going to say this to do this this this you know, and it's like I lean very heavily on him on you know, I don't ask him do you like this color or this color? Because he's colorblind first of all, second of all, he would never want to be responsible for this is just like that. But if it comes, if it comes to anything that is, is this going to benefit the company? Is this going to I don't want to offend anybody. does this come out too harsh? You know, whatever that looks like I really lean on Ben because he's, I don't know how to say it. Like he he's the middle child of seven. He doesn't he doesn't he wants everyone to be happy and Okay, and does this work for you? And does this work for you? And let's meet in the middle Peacemaker.
Michele 17:58
Ben, your very steady
Jenny Slingerland 18:00
That is it!
Michele 18:01
I mean, and I mean that in a very good way you also I've noticed from our conversations together that you're coming, you have a very calm, steady approach level very level headed. And I've seen Jenny bounce a lot off of you around the business and HR all of it and I think Jenny, wouldn't you agree is because he doesn't get really excited in in like a negative way. Right? He's very calm. He stays kind of level headed as he thinks through things and that that can be a challenge for a lot of us.
Jenny Slingerland 18:35
It is absolutely what I have none of that in me at all. No calm no steady. No, he's like, I am just like, opposite end of the spectrum. I can fly off the handle, I'm zero to 100. There's no in between. There's, it's like, it's all right there. And Ben, you're like a little time when Yes, I'm a Tasmanian devil, and it's just like, and pens like Jenny, calm down. And I'll be like, Don't tell me to calm down. And then later I'm, you know, I'll come back and be like, I'm sorry, did you have something that you wanted to say, you know, like, I realized I just need that moment to like, then or to, you know, yell about something that's happening. I just need that moment. And he knows now he's like, I'm not sure if she wants me to actually try to help solve the problem or just listen, so he'll just he just a lot of times will just listen and then I might just stomp off and that's it. That is okay, who's wanting to die or he'll be like, Okay, do you think that your Can I show you how maybe they saw that or how they felt when they read that or whatever it is? And I'm like, dang it, you're right. You know, and then and that's always the case, right? Like that.
Michele 19:45
Love that. Yeah, and most of the books that we read in, we've looked at a whole string of books between EMF and traction and all of those books. They all talk about having like the visionary and then having like the person that is like the integrator, the one who's actually making things happen. And I think not that Ben's not a visionary but I do think that's a role that you play Jenny in the company, you're very much out there and looking and Ben is like that, that steady integrator there making sure that those ideas are working in the firm. You guys really do work well together. I think you're he balances your well being you balanced Jenny very well.
Ben Slingerland 20:29
Well, yeah, honestly, we do talk about, because I don't know that it would be a healthy, you know, working situation, if we both had a very similar personality, right. Like, you'd be tough to work together. So I think the fact that we have different working styles, different personnel, I think allows us to actually work together effectively. Which is nice, right? Because at the same time, we when we finish work, we are together at home, right? So it's, you know, we need to make sure that we still can get along and work together 24 hours a day, really.
20:59
But that's because of you like literally you're saying, honestly, like you guys, don't
Ben Slingerland 21:03
Let's not go too far.
Jenny Slingerland 21:04
Oh, like really to put up with me.
Michele 21:06
He does have some saint qualities.
Ben Slingerland 21:09
My goodness,
Jenny Slingerland 21:10
I feel if he had a personality like me, first of all, I wouldn't have dated you. But I think like opposites attract. And you know, we've been married 24 years now and, you know, in this business together a few years. And it's going well, but it's because Ben is able, I think to talk me off the ledge. And I think before you were to make a jump into a situation of working with your spouse, it would literally be asking yourself if other than the, you know, six hours you're sleeping at night, can you stand to be with that person every day and to get feedback when needed? You know, and
Michele 21:45
I think so. The hard part it's not the together. Is that your speaking part? Right? Yeah.
Jenny Slingerland 21:50
Yeah, totally. And Ben is, Ben gives his feedback, and he'll start it with, I don't want you to get upset. But you know, here's some feedback. And then I don't take it usually very well. And then I come back and apologize. And I'm like, Okay, are you right? But that's just how we're, we've grown, I think, and I'm getting better, I feel like Ben, please say that I am. So I don't look like the most ridiculous human being because I feel like I'm sounding like it. But I do feel like I could not be where I am. And this business would not be where it is without Ben not only because of the value he brings with his MBA, and with his human resources, background and leadership, and all of the things that he has, but also his ability to handle, you know, the family dynamic, and be with me for that amount of time, we are just two very different people wired two very different ways. And he's able to recognize that and appreciate it in me. And he'll even say things like, you know, I would never have had kind of I don't I don't want to say the guts. But you know, the to say, I can do this on my own, we're going to do this, you know, be to have that entrepreneurial fighting spirit. And yet, we are thriving because of him. But it does take another type of person to be able to get that there. Does that make sense?
Michele 23:09
It's the balance of the two. And that's exactly why an E myth. There's, you know, the CEO, and then there's the manager, or there's the, you know, the entrepreneur in the manager, and then over in traction, you've got the visionary and the integrator, everybody knows there's got to be somebody driving hard in front, and somebody standing there, like manipulating behind the scenes and making everything work. And I think that is the beauty of what two of you have created together. So let me ask you this, because I also know over time, the business has shifted a little bit and changed a little bit. I don't know if you remember this, but you guys called me I want to say it was 2018. You called me?
Jenny Slingerland 23:50
Yeah, I think that's right.
Michele 23:51
And said that Ben had been had just joined your firm. And you know, you were trying to kind of get your arms around everything, because the business is growing so quickly. And we had a quick phone call, just to talk about it. And you guys weren't quite ready to move forward with coaching at that point. So you put it on hold, and then you came back? What was it in 2020? And you're like, Okay, now we're ready. I know you've also and you've talked about this before you've worked with other coaches? How is it that you identify when you're ready to bring in an expert in an area to work with you? How do you know that, okay, we've gone as far as we can go by ourselves, and we've done what we can do, and we can trudge along to figure out the rest, or we can call an expert. How do you get to that point? And what is it?
Ben Slingerland 24:40
Yeah, I think it's just as we just obviously our own observations of the business and things that are going on in areas that maybe we were struggling with, or in some cases just we just don't have the time to, to put into or the energy to put into that particular area of focus and so this has to do with coaching and also how we You know, the areas where we maybe contract out some work, whether it's AutoCAD or wherever it might be, where we maybe don't have the in house expertise or skill or the time energy or labor to do it, right. So, we kind of evaluate those things. And then we try to find through obviously, our network of podcasts, we listen to books, we read people, we work with other places, we try to, you know, take a look at what resources exist out there, do our research and then see if it's a good fit for us. And we reach out in and I think, I think what's important to recognize is that, you know, some people are hesitant to invest, right, in a coach or a course or development, but we recognize in order to grow your business, and also grow your own skill set, you have to invest, whether that's through coaching or other obvious opportunities for development. And so that's, that's kind of how we've looked at it.
Jenny Slingerland 25:51
And you know, Michele, one thing that we do is it's, you know, we look at what the investment is, and what do we think the return on that investment is going to be? And can we afford it? And what can this do for our business and, and kind of lead and guide us for the rest of our careers, right. And so we look at it really, you know, hard at the beginning, and I can honestly say there isn't one coach, or a program or something that we may have invested in where I've we've ever regretted that we've made that investment.
Michele 26:21
You know, I think you made a big point there without it even sounding like a really big point. And this is something that I explained to people that I work with all the time. Sometimes it's easy to look at, but I'm going to call it the cost of a program or the cost of an investment or the cost of a contract the cost of something, right? Instead of looking at it as an investment, we look at it as a cost, just like our clients do, we have to change the wording up with what we're doing. But we also looked at it as the cost of the here and now. So what does it cost for me right now, when if you made the comment, Jenny, and we invest in these things, because they help for the remainder of our business or the life of our business. And that's what I think is so important. I know, some of the things that I teach around financials and hiring and all those things. Those are lessons that if you learn them, it's not just an investment or the ROI within that first year, it's the ROI of every single year after that, where you now know that you have the knowledge you have the skill set, you have the tools to do something, it is now a return on investment year over year over year over year, because you've learned that idea or that skill, right.
Jenny Slingerland 27:34
Absolutely.
Michele 27:35
And I think sometimes it's easy to be very much about paying for something and thinking it's in the short term when it's really from that point forward, you now know what to do and how to do it.
Jenny Slingerland 27:44
That's right and those are the skills that you take with you like riding a bike once you learn it, you have it and you rely on it you know.
Michele 27:46
So how do you all set, well let me go back to this when you first came in to work with Jenny, Ben how did you guys set up financial goals? Did you set just let's do this to get by how did you look at it and determine financially that you could number one make it work but number two, did you set a goal for what you needed to bring in to sustain it? Or were you not that cut and dry about it?
Ben Slingerland 28:23
No, we didn't we've probably didn't look at it through the lens of what do we need to survive right as much as we looked at the business and the opportunities the growth the clients that we had sort of take on and sort of kind of put some numbers down okay what do we think we can achieve based on again the projects that we had and ones that we maybe had working on? Or and also what do we want to accomplish right so there's a combination of what we have today what's in the pipeline and then also like what our ultimate goals were and we would look at that on an annual basis right and also we looked at things that would need we would need to have in place to achieve those goals so what are some systems processes people training development, those kind of things that we would need to also execute marketing and so forth to help us achieve those goals and so we've gotten better over time but initially it was kind of a one pager kind of quick big numbers and some strategies and tactics right to achieve those numbers. But we've certainly refined and with your help as well refined our ability to plan for our business as we've gone on and look you know forward a year two, three years out to say you know, where do you want to be what do you want to accomplish?
Michele 29:34
What do you think what has been the difference to you from let's say almost a year ago before we started working together, the way you looked at the numbers the understanding the possibility all the things in the command know when you came to me, it was because you guys were killing it, right? But it almost was outgrowing you in some ways from just being able to get your arms around it because So much so fast, right? How do you think that you looked at your financials and your numbers and possibilities, then, versus the mindset that you have to look at them now? a year out?
Ben Slingerland 30:14
Yeah, I think you just gave us some tools to help us look at things differently to look at sort of the key performance indicators to break things down, in a way, so analyze the financials in a different way, so that we could, you know, take insights from them, and then also to look beyond just a year right. So I think that's the other thing that you've been great to just say, okay, what's your, what's your three, five year plan? And, you know, start jotting some thoughts down and, you know, we still have, you know, work to do there. But I think it's just looking at things differently, how do we pull insights out of the information that we have to help us improve and to plan for the future.
Michele 30:52
I think that's great, because you know what, I've seen this happen in my own business when I first started. And it's the same kind of thing of the way we think about investing in anything, right? Help subcontractors, hiring that new employee, whatever it is, you're just trying to get by for the moment, or you're looking very, very short term within this year, within this month, within this quarter. But when we actually get to a point that we understand that we are in in many, many ways, creating this kind of like you said, the two of us can go create this right, Jenny and Ben and if we don't like it, then we'll go do something else. And you both have talked about being able to create the business that you want so that you could also you know, have the family life you want and do those things. And when we can really start looking ahead, I think that's when we start to kind of feel like we're really driving the business instead of it driving us because now we're telling it where to go and we understand the resources that are needed to get it there. And it actually creates a framework for decision making. From my viewpoint, does it does it feel like that for you and Jenny?
Ben Slingerland 32:03
Absolutely. I think that's another thing I forgot to bring up but thank you for saying that it did help us determine things like What's your ideal client? What types of projects do you want to take what sides of projects how many projects at any given time right so it allowed us to evaluate all of those things.
Jenny Slingerland 32:20
And how much to charge per project right? Like yes project this much let's break it down and see if at the end of the day if this number that you came up with is actually going to cover your time and sometimes...
Michele 32:33
Jenny don't you remember that one time when you had a really awesome opportunity? And you were pricing it one way and you just said I think this will price it and I said okay, let's stress test your pricing. So what we did, let's say for example, somebody always charged this flat rate or they always charged by square foot, we turned it around and really went through what is it going to take to get the job done the way that you want to do it and put your brand and name on it? How many hours is it really going to take and you were kind of shocked at the fact that you would have undercharged if you had used kind of a method before because of the difficulty you know what I mean sometimes the method works but it doesn't always work for everything and I remember that being so eye opening for you going oh my goodness I wish I had thought to thankfully you hadn't quoted it so we were good but just really sitting back and going there's more than one way to do it. I know I'm asked all the time how should I price my answer is whichever way you can make money you know sometimes it's easier to price with a flat rate sometimes it's easier by square footage and sometimes it's easier hourly but it really comes down to knowing what you do you both said knowing who your client is how you want to serve them the level of work that you want to do and then making sure that you're fairly compensated for that but I so remember as you scribbling on a piece of paper I think I had my remarkable and I was going page after page after page we were trying to keep up with oh my gosh there's an extra bathroom or I only counted one kitchen but there's a whole outdoor kitchen and there's a whole kitchen in the basement well wait it went now we got three kitchens and I just was thinking one kitchen you know and so just really taking the time to go through all the I just remember that be such a fun coaching time with you that day.
Jenny Slingerland 34:19
Yeah, and I learned my lesson and now every time I will do that right it isn't just a quick square foot number and pat it a little bit or you know it's really break it break it down. really look at the numbers because you know if somebody is building an $8 million house, they can pay to have you do the work right? And I often find myself in position well Oh, is that going to be too high? Is it but as we get the better clients, I'm less worried because it's like if they don't want to pay, that's fine. There's a lot of designers are going to be happy to do it for that price. I was that designer at one point, right? I was the one like literally slaving for pennies on the dollar because I was like I need this experience. I need to get this I want this. And I, I'm not at that point anymore. And I need to be okay with that sometimes mindset is what gets in the way of, I don't know, if they're going to spend that, okay, well, hang on, they have $8 million, they're willing to invest in this house, and they probably want a good designer, you know, and they want her to be feel good about the work she's doing and that she's been adequately paid for it. So I'm not, you know, it's, there's a lot of mindset, I think with money too, which you've helped with as well. And just even breaking down the goals. What is your goal this year? What do you want your financial numbers to be? Alright, let's look it out who you now we got to take out this salary, this salary, you know, your designer salary, we need to take out the rent or whatever it might be. And, and Okay, then with what's left over, this is how much you have to bring in. Right? Just even learning how to do that to know if what we're putting out based on last year's numbers? Is it going to still give us that profitability? Or do we need to? How can we change what we're doing? Is that charging more? Is it putting a bigger markup on the furniture? How are we going to get to this number.
Michele 36:06
Or is it you know, in a couple of things, we've modified a process where the process wasn't working, we also went through and looked at, as I would say, right, but right seat, we didn't have all the right butts and all the right seats at different times. That's right. And so because you have you've shifted your team over the last year, and you know, and that's just part of growing, that's the thing, it's not about being right or wrong, or good or bad. It's just a growth process. And constantly looking at, like we said, and you know, it's so funny, we can all say it, and it starts to sound cliche, but it is so true. It's knowing who you and Ben are in business and what you're trying to create with your team. And then making sure that you align with the right builders, the right clients, the right vendors, and the right employees and team members and staff to be able to get it done. It's just that alignment that makes it work along with being paid properly. And that came with us digging into your process on what is it that you really do what needs to be done? What's missing? How do we build that in? And I think sometimes when we're growing a company and scaling, I know it was true for you. And for most people, we get so busy doing the work that we're not analyzing the work and asking ourselves, is this still the right way? Best way? smartest way, quickest way most efficient way? You know? Or is it still? Is it still good for us to do it like this, we just do it because we've always done it, so that we can just get the work done and get it out the door. I mean that that thing that's human nature is what we all do. And so taking kind of that time that you and Ben are taken to do kind of that small reset of Okay, let's take, let's take that one or two steps back to look at everything so that we can then run further ahead. It's not always easy, but it it absolutely pays off.
Jenny Slingerland 37:55
Yeah, and I think for sure, and also having like one thing that's important to me is like accountability, because I can have all the, you know, the best ideas and the best intentions and then, but having somebody to be accountable for almost like homework, right? Like something is due on this date, or, oh, I wanted to make sure I'm prepared for our next call. I appreciate that. Because if not, it's like you said, You are so busy working in it that you're not going to take the time, your client will always come first and you'll put aside, even if it's for the betterment of your company, you'll put aside what you need to do for your company in order to get what you need to the client out. And so it's helpful for me to have somebody to be accountable to and hey, we have a call coming up with Michele or with whoever, you know, and we need to make sure we have everything ready for that. And, you know, we said we were going to have this done, is it done. And so I think that's always very helpful, too, because it's the only way I know for me that I can get out of the business and work on it.
Michele 38:49
So tell me this, what have the two of you worked on? And what are some of your big plans moving forward? What are some of the new goals that you've said or things like that? I mean, you just I know, one of them is you guys just moved back into your home from your space, right?
Jenny Slingerland 39:09
And that was, as you know, a blessing in disguise from COVID in realizing we can do what we do kind of from anywhere and I needed to be home with my daughters more. They're 13 and 11. And if I had signed another three-year lease, my oldest would be I don't know, junior or senior in high school. I was like, no, that's not going to happen. It was a 45-minute drive each way. And I was just like, I'm just spending my time that I could be with my family in the car. This is ridiculous. And so that was a big change for us. And I know moving forward, we're wanting to take more vacations and for our family, which has never been a priority in the last few years and we're making it one. We also are wanting to invest in our staff and you know taking we've been taking them to High Point and we're looking at maybe going to some abroad trade shows in Europe, you know, we want this to be successful for us. But we want to make sure that our employees feel valued and that we are, you know, paying them what they need, giving them bonuses at the end of year based on, you know how we're doing. But also, this is an industry where creative process, sometimes you just get burned out, and you just need to see something new and something fresh. And so we want to make sure that they we give them those opportunities so that they're happy.
Michele 40:31
I'm so excited about that for all of you. And I love the way that you know, that's what I think I'd love so much. The clients that I work with those that come to me, are kind. And they're also the type of clients that want to take care of their teams. I don't have one coaching client that I have that's like I wanted out for me and forget the team, every one of them is we all are working hard, how do we all benefit in this together. And so I think that, clearly my ideal client avatar for that is working well, because really great, good. And that's what they say. But it's true that we're all we're all in this together, especially when you're in it with the team. And you don't want to be up here, you know, having everything great for you and you know, paying them $10 an hour and having them struggle. like nobody wants that. And so I love that about the heart that both of you have is making sure that your family is taken care of and making sure your team is taken care of with time and with making sure that you have fair pay and wages and bonuses and all that. And that's one of the things, let's talk about that for a minute. Because bonuses and profit sharing that that money doesn't come out of thin air, that money comes out of hard work, that money comes out of pricing your design and products and expertise properly, it comes out of properly managing those funds, so that there is a net profit at the end of the year to be able to do that. And so that's, I think that's one of the things that excites me is being able to help companies, look at the numbers, get the numbers straight, understand how to use them as tools, and it's building blocks to create this company, and this outcome that they want to even be in a position to talk about profit sharing, and overseas and abroad kind of trips with your team. It's an amazing accomplishment. So kudos to the two of you.
Jenny Slingerland 42:30
Oh, thank you.
Ben Slingerland 42:31
Thanks for sharing. And thanks for your help, obviously, in helping us kind of figure that stuff out and things to implement in our business to help us get there.
Michele 42:38
I might have to piggyback on the abroad thing. I don't think Jenny would mind if I piggy backed on that?
Ben Slingerland 42:47
No, I don't think she would. But I think one of the things and sort of answer to your previous question around you just we've I think come in especially Jenny, I think it's just it originally, it was sort of more hyper growth mode, right, like, more clients, more clients studio, you know, those kind of things that I think there's a some recognition over the last, you know, year and a half two years, like, what do we really want, right? Is that what we want. And so I think we've spent some time really evaluating, you know, we'd rather have a small and mighty team, that we can really build a strong core. And of course, you know, bring in consultants, coaches, outsource certain activities, versus trying to grow and grow and grow the team, just get more efficient at what we do. And there might be a point in the future where it makes sense for us to do that. But right now, we just thought it'd be best to let's, let's have let's, let's develop our growing mining or small mining team and focus on the right clients at the right price point, you know, and instead of chasing everything right, and so I think we've done a great job of implementing that in terms of kind of what our vision is for our team. And then again, that that can change in three to five years based on our own circumstances. And we're the business is.
Michele 43:56
You know, I remember to I don't know, I'm, I'm assuming you both remember it, but God could have blocked it. Our first, our first coaching meeting that we had, and, Jenny, you were frazzled and overwhelmed simply because you had been working without an off switch, like you had not had a day off. You not had a weekend off. You were working all day. You were working at night, and you were working weekends. Do you remember that?
Jenny Slingerland 44:25
Mm hmm.
Michele 44:25
And one of the first things that you have been said to me is, regardless of the money and everything else, that Jenny needs time off, help us find a way to get her a break. And I remember when you guys went on that first, you were going on a weekend vacation and Ben said in the past at normal you didn't go but he would go and take the girls, but you went and I made Ben your handler Do you remember that dude?
Jenny Slingerland 44:48
Yeah, I can't.
Michele 44:49
I said you are not allowed to look at email there anything Ben as your handler is going to go through Ben and if he thinks it's important enough to break the family weekend for you to look at it. He'll tell you otherwise you don't care. took a look at it, because Ben can look at it and put it away and wait till Monday. You were so anxious to make sure that you didn't drop any balls and keep everything going. That you just you just kept answering every you kept pouring out into everybody else. Yes, right? Yes. And one of the first things we did was try to start separating you from that a little bit, but I'll never forget all right, Ben, I'm going to check with your money, your her hand, like nothing, she can't look at it. And you did, you did get some time off that we can we knew it was going to be a baby step. But I'm proud of you. Because over this last year, I know you've taken some time off, and you had not done that prior to. And you guys have been, I think to Hawaii, and you've been on some trips, you flew in and out on some of the summer trips that Ben had taken the girls on, you know, your normal summer things, you guys have taken a few weekends here and there. And so it's nice to see that growth. And I mentioned that because sometimes people think that and Ben kind of hit the nail on the head, a small and mighty team, it doesn't have to be bigger, bigger, bigger. And that's why when we talk about scaling, sometimes it's just that reclaiming of your time, and making sure that you, again, are having the life that you want, which means not an hour and a half in the car every day, you know, 45 minutes there and back, being able to take a vacation, being able to have the right people in the right seats in the office so that they can keep things going so that you can take the step away, and let your brain refresh and the same that you would want to do for them. And so you've done a lot of work towards that. And so I celebrate you because you didn't get a vacation the year before. But we you can win this year.
Jenny Slingerland 46:43
I did. Thank you. And we are trying to make that a priority. And I need it. And so we are definitely better about making sure that that happens. So thank you.
Michele 46:55
Yeah, and you know, again, sometimes it's just easy to think of growth, all in the way of the numbers. And it's really about so much more. To me scaling and growing. And doing it with ease is about doing it in a way that allows you to create the lifestyle that you want to live. Yeah, that's well put up. So well, you guys have done a great job at it. And any other big goals you all have, as you're looking forward to the next one to three years.
Jenny Slingerland 47:20
I'm sure as I hang up, I'll think of all of them. Can you think of any out there?
Ben Slingerland 47:29
Well, I think I mean, one of the things we've talked to Michele, this is a goal, you know, it's as we you know, closed our studio down, we're just working from home, we also want to make sure that we have the proper place to do that. So we are, you know, as we looked at what we're planning to build a new home, and we'll build an office space associated with that at the same time. So that we can, you know, provide a nice place to work for, obviously, our team members, but have it separate from our family as well. So that's sort of our next big goal from a more operation standpoint, but something that's on the horizon for us that we are planning for and working toward.
Michele 48:04
That's fantastic. Jenny, you also want to make sure we give you a plug here, you also teach, of course, at Lewin University. Yeah, tell us tell us a little bit about that course. And I know that it's not open all the time. So it you know, there are different quarters that it's open. So just, we'll put it in the show notes, and people can look at it. But I want to make sure you've done a lot of work on that. I know I've even had some in my coaching, turn around and go take that course from you while they're coaching and right beside you. And then taking the course you said it was awesome. And then really kick started some things for them. So let's make sure we give you a shout out for the for that work. Tell us a little bit about that.
Jenny Slingerland 48:42
Well, thank you. Yeah, it's called Design For Build 101. And my goal in this is to create another revenue stream for designers. So I know from my experience working in the construction industry, you take for granted, and maybe because it was my first job out of school, you take for granted that it's something you know, and I realized, hey, I've got designer friends who are asking me how to do a spec book or to how to fill out a scheduler, you know, what order are the builders building and how you know, what order Do I need to get them this information? And I thought, Oh, I guess, you know, what can I do to help people know, you know how to tackle this. I know there's a lot of people who want to get involved in remodels and a new builds and not just do furnishings. And so this is just a very, from step one of how to meet that builder, you know, and how to make that connection to how do you put together a finish schedule? What order are they going to build in so that you know what you need to be selecting and when, what are the proper drawings and elevations that you need to provide for the builder and it just walks through as a six week course it's once a week, and we walk through how to do all of that and if you follow the homework schedule and you do what you're supposed to do throughout About six weeks by the end of the project, you can have a sample spec book made to take in to sit down with a builder, there's so much construction happening right now. And when you're able to get in on a home in the build phase, or in the remodel phase, most people aren't bringing their old furniture with them. So you already have a foot in the door to then also do the furniture package, which is always our goal, because that's really where we make our money is in the markup. And so if we can do a get in that front door, when we're in the construction phase, we have an automatic in to the furniture package, as long as we haven't screwed up in the build. And that made people mad, and you know, all the things which we don't, at this point, right? Like, everything goes smoothly, for the most part that you I put that in quotes, you know, for what we can do for what we could deliver. But it gets us and it should get everybody in the door for the furniture. And that's where you want to be when you can do all of it. And then you've got the control, then when you photograph, it's all your work, right? It's your kitchen design, you've picked everything in there, and then now you've styled it and furnished it and you kind of have ownership of that whole house and it's really awesome. It's really a fun thing to have. And so that's why I teach that and I teach the fall and winter semesters and I've really enjoyed it and had so much great feedback that it honestly like sometimes brings me almost to tears because it's would you read the difference that it's made in someone's life like it really touches you and you're like, I didn't know that it could be this important to somebody or you know, this game changing for someone so it's been awesome.
Michele 51:44
I love it. And that's how I feel about my coaching, too. You know, I think when you pour out of yourself into someone else to share and to help them, and then they receive it and they're thankful for it. It does. It changes the way that you actually interact with your work. Definitely, Yeah, awesome. Well, I'll make sure that we put a link in the show notes to that. So if anybody wants to jump in, for the next time you're teaching it, they have the ability to do that. But Jenny and Ben, thank you so much for joining today and just sharing a little bit about your journey about the husband and wife team about how you know, investing in your business has been so important in multiple ways. And then also being able to give back with a great program. So I just really appreciate our time together today.
Jenny Slingerland 52:33
Thank you, Michele.
Ben Slingerland 52:34
Thanks, Michele.
Michele 52:35
You're welcome. You guys. Have a good day.
Jenny Slingerland 52:37
You too. Bye. Bye.
Michele 52:39
Thanks, Jenny again for sharing your business journey with us. You know, I always think it's fun to listen and hear the details of how others have stepped out and courage to build a business based on what they love. And this story highlights that courage. Maybe you've been wanting to step out and get assistance to build the business you also want. If so take the next step and sign up for a discovery call on my website at ScarletThreadConsulting.com. I would love to help you grow your idea of a business into the real thing. take a chance on you. Because profit and sustainable success don't happen by accident. Profit is a Choice is proud to be part of the designnetwork.org where you can discover more design media reaching creative listeners. Thanks for listening and stay creative and business minded.