193: Leveraging Your Network to Build Your Design Business
Michele 00:00
Hello, my name is Michele, and you're listening to Profit is a Choice. Joining me today is Pamela Durkin. Pamela has spent over 30 years in the high end design business serving both residential and commercial clients. She continues to practice design and she also teaches other designers how to be magnetic and attract the best clients through her in demand designer program. We're talking today about networking, ideal clients and how to make an impression from the beginning. Every day, empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company financial health, and enjoying the rewards of reduced stress and more creativity. With my background as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses and the interior design, industry, educator, and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line, and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to Profit is a Choice. Hey, Pamela, welcome to the podcast.
Pamela Durkin 01:09
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Michele 01:12
Me too. I'm excited to talk to you. Before we jump in, I would love for you to share with the listeners a little bit about your story. I'd love to hear how you got into design, what inspired you to go that route? And then let's talk through some of the early challenges you had when you kind of started doing things on your own?
Pamela Durkin 01:33
Yeah, that's certainly a loaded question. So we'll see how much time we have. I'll condense it as much as possible. So I've been in the business for over 30 years. And actually, I was first introduced into design and the field of design when I was in high school, I actually took a class from a wonderful person who actually was an interior designer, it was a home economics class. And she talked about interior design in that class. And the thing that I loved so much about it was that it married both technical and artistic abilities together. And I have never heard of anything, any profession that had done that before. So that really started the wheels turning in terms of what I was thinking about what I was going to do beyond high school, and then ended up going to college for interior design. And at the time, I was greatly discouraged from doing that from my mother, because she thought it was such a, it was an artsy degree. And she was really worried about the whole starving artists syndrome. And as you know, it is a it is a challenge in this industry. And once I got out of college, I ended up starting my work in commercial design, it was something that I really wanted to do. First, I wanted to be a commercial designer. So I did start doing commercial design, and eventually got to the point where I wanted to go on my own. And when I went on my own, I decided to do a blend of commercial and residential design. But what the background in commercial gave me which I use to this day, is the skills of organization and processes on how a project runs. And I brought all that to my residential practice. And that has really made a huge difference in how I present my business, and then also how I run my business. So that's kind of the shortened version of how I got to where I am today. And I still do a blend of residential and commercial design.
Michele 03:32
You know, I find it interesting that in a whole met class, you were able to be introduced to interior design, because I've been in the workforce gosh, over 30 years as well, you know, post college and everything else. I don't think I ever even knew interior design was the theme until maybe in the 90s, late 90s. And I did my you know, high school college experience in early working experience in the 80s. I just didn't even really know it was a thing I don't think I ever stopped. Number one I was from a very small town, a very rural town, very blue collar town. And so we didn't really have if we had interior designers I never met one I never knew of one. We didn't really even have like these home living stores that you said we had a furniture store and that was where you bought things. I don't know that I ever considered how those things got done or who did them. It just wasn't even. I know I loved beautiful things. I know I love decorating. I knew I loved magazines, but I never saw it as even an opportunity for a job or career. And so I think that is a huge blessing that you had. Because if I had had that early on, I do believe that I would have gone in a completely different route from the way that I went. You know, I think that it would have definitely been on my shortlist. I may have gotten pushback from others as well, back then. But I just think that's really a cool opportunity that you had early on to see it as something that could create a livelihood and made it a need. I love how you also mentioned about the technical and the creative. And I think that's where my brain runs is right down that middle of left brain, right brain. And I've shared before you know that that whole left brain is logic and right brain is creative. And I would say that if mine had to err on one side of the other mind would err on logic. So I kind of do the whole, let's get the process, let's have the logic, let's do the math, let's do framework. And then I can move and like shift into creative, where some people are so creative, that then they have to shift. But I think it's a really nice thing that the commercial and the residential kind of hits all of those, you can ping pong between them, and feed all the different parts of you know, what excites you.
Pamela Durkin 06:01
Yeah. And I was just I, you know, you're the second or third person is totally about the home economics and having someone with a design background, how unusual that is, and honestly, I'd never thought about it because it was just the way it was. I didn't grow up in a big town either. But you're right, I was so lucky to have that opportunity. At that time when I was getting to that point where I was going to be going to college, that really helped me decide where I was going to go. Not many people know what they want to do when they go into college. And because I knew I think that's what kind of scared my family because it was a new profession. And, you know, hadn't been widely talked about. So I was definitely lucky with that.
Michele 06:45
So how long Pamela, were you in commercial? Before you decided to kind of step out on your own? Do you have an idea?
Pamela Durkin 06:54
I think it was about seven years, I did commercial design. I actually worked at a few commercial furniture dealerships. And we worked on projects in I lived in an area I'm originally from New Jersey, I'm in Florida now. But when I was in New Jersey, we lived in an area that went had a lot of pharmaceutical companies. And so a lot of the business was pharma related. And we used to do a lot of reconfigurations re stacks and huge moves, we were doing 1000 person moves and things like that. So lots of parts and pieces. And then I also have the the joy of working in New York City. And I say that tongue in cheek because I grew up on a farm. So going to New York City to be at a job site at 8am, when I live two hours away, was not so glamorous. And it was a little overwhelming for me. So but I did get to do a lot of work in New York City and kind of get a chance to see the behind the scenes of the glamour of what you know, when somebody says I'm a designer in New York City, and no offense to anyone who does design in New York City. But I got to see firsthand what that would look like if I were to do that. And it just wasn't for me. So I was lucky enough, again, to your point to have that experience going, not for me. And then from there, I actually decided to go on my own, because I had recently had a baby. And after having my first child went back to work for about a year. And to be honest with you, it was heart wrenching and exhausting and unfulfilling to the 100th degree. And that's that was the moment that I decided, you know, something here's got to change, and I've got to go out on my own.
Michele 08:49
So when you started on your own, and let me go back, before we go that route, I want to just make a comment. I do think it is important. Sometimes we we don't know what we like and what we want to do until we give it a try. You know, again, working in New York City can sound glamorous until you think about where you're going to park, how you're going to get there. How long is it going to take you to get in? What does traffic look like, I gotta get up at 3am to make it 8am With a two hour drive. You know, when you start counting the cost of all of it. It maybe isn't as glamorous for some as others, those that live in the heart of the city and they're doing design two blocks away, they're going to have a completely different experience than you had. Right, right. So I do think it's super important for us to realize to really find like the part of our career that makes our heart sing. We have to try multiple things and that's totally okay. Like Commercial versus residential. I know some designers would be like, Don't ever make me do commercial. Others are like I've been in commercial and then I switched or you know, you just see it from from all different viewpoints. So I love the idea of really testing it out trying and seeing. That's why a lot of the new designers when they're coming up, they're, you know, what should I do. And I'm like, try multiple things. Because you may find something that you love that somebody else doesn't. You know, I have designers now that I work with that they prefer the building of the business to the design, I have others that are like, let somebody else be an integrator, so that I can just design. So it varies all over the place, we just kind of have to figure out, figure it out and find our way.
Pamela Durkin 10:29
I agree. And to your point, I think that we can customize our own businesses so that they even if we're in residential, or were in commercial, I think we can customize it so much further than that, even removing things that either we're not good at and have someone else help us with or removing them altogether. I know many designers right now are getting rid of procurement, and changing the way and adapting their business because there's so much stress around that. And yes, you do make money, but at what cost? And with an extended time frame in a project that now goes, you know, maybe twice as long or even longer than it did before. How much money are you really making on that? And what kind of emotional toll is it taking on you. And so I always encourage people to even look at what they would term a traditional design business or what a real designer does, and say, You know what, you're in your own business, you went in your own business for a reason. And you certainly can customize it to fit how, you know, you run your life and your zone of genius, and also what works for you and what's profitable for sure.
Michele 11:38
So I agree with you, because one of the things I always say is when I'm coaching people, and I know you work with other designers as well, we're not creating cookie cutter businesses. The goal here is for each person to understand how they're made, what their strengths are their values, what they love to do, what they enjoy doing, what their team is specialized in, and then be able to take that and serve their clients, which then ultimately serves them, right. I hate that idea of thinking that you have to do something to be a designer or this is the right way or wrong way. I'm like no, no. Is the client happy and satisfied? Are you happy and satisfied? Is it fair and reasonable for the client? Is it fair and reasonable for the sustainability of your company, then keep in isn't moral thing keep doing it? Right? Who cares? I've had some designers that have gone through to your point about the procurement and everything just based on their family, their life and what they could do, they are doing more of I'm going to come in and design for you. And I'm going to give you a plan and let you do it. And I'm going to walk on and go design the next thing. They're doing more of a completely service based model, right? And it for them, it's working out, it's stress reduction, another designer would look at that model. And they may say, oh my gosh, I can't imagine giving up that control. I want to control it all. And just the way I want to do it totally cool, totally fine, that company is going to be set up for that they're willing to do what they need to do to make that happen. Somebody else's night. So I know. I mean, my business has certainly shifted over the years, and I assume most people's are going to shift because it is rare that you land 100% on the perfect job, the perfect client, the perfect ideal of everything the first time you go out the door to try it.
Pamela Durkin 13:28
Yes. And I you know, we, we all started our businesses to to, for it to be different. So you don't want to trade one job for another right one awful job for another awful job, just because you own it. So I think you can definitely design your own business, exactly what you said, and to really look at what works for you, and what's profitable for your business. And then customize it from there.
Michele 13:52
When you started on your own. After those seven years and having that first child, what are some of the challenges that you ran into? I mean, we all run into it no matter how much we know, we run into something right? I know you said you brought a light of the process that you had been working in a commercial and that that kind of informed the way that you worked in residential. But what were some of the challenges that you had early on?
Pamela Durkin 14:18
I mean, of course, the biggest challenge is where am I gonna get business from? And to just step back for a little bit, when I started my business, it was not planned. So when I was working for another company, it got to the point in what was happening day to day with me and my business and this was also around the time of 911. So there was a lot of stress and I was working in New York City and on the outskirts of New York City, so certainly very emotionally affected by what was happening there as well. So when I went back to work, it just got it kind of got worse. and worse and worse. I mean, it just was not a good. It wasn't a good situation. So when I started my business it actually was I quit. And now what do I do? type situation? So I was a bit unprepared. I'm not sure I would recommend that. To anyone listening. Definitely have a plan a little more of a plan than I did. So I think the stressor really was okay, what do I do now?
Michele 15:22
Yeah, mine started that way. My first one started that way I had left Dun and Bradstreet and I came home I had a one year old and a three year old. And my doorbell rang and my Bunko of neighborhood friends. Two women were standing there with a bolt of fabric, one had a bolt of fabric, the others with her, and they're like, We love everything. You've done your house, I've got this fabric, we made me a window treatment. And I was like, Okay, so, you know, again, I started without a plan, I didn't have everything, I didn't have my feet up under me, I had just done the work. And they came in and saw it and said, I'll pay you to do that for me. And that was in 2000. And so at that point, I was like, Okay, I guess here we go.
Pamela Durkin 16:06
Yes, and this is when I guess, you know, when your backs up against the wall, procrastination is no longer an option, right. So there was a lot of, you know, basically calling everyone I knew to get anything residential, commercial, I didn't care what it was to just get the get the ball rolling, get the word out. And, you know, that was long before social media or any of that. So it was phone calls, we were dialing for dollars, basically, which was super uncomfortable. Because I am a true introvert. I've gotten I am now almost selective extra extrovert, where I can kind of turn it on. But generally, I'm not very outgoing when it comes to that stuff. And it's super uncomfortable for me, because I just doesn't feel like we talked about in alignment. And that really is the basis for a lot of my coaching is helping people with getting clients, the pre the pre sale process, it's before you get the project and how you can do that in a very comfortable non sleazy way. So that all stems really from my own experience of, you know, calling someone up and saying do any work for me. Which nobody, by the way, don't recommend that either. That's not the way to do it. So yeah, I just was getting on the phone and talking to everybody I can think of,
Michele 17:24
I remember those days as well, because my business was starting there was, and we were starting to get a little bit of internet activity in the early 2000s. But it I mean, it wasn't a big deal. I did find some things out there. But it was it was still relatively new. And I just remember walking around with business cards I had, I had to make sure I had business cards everywhere. And you were constantly having to talk about what you do and tell people because there was no other way to do it. It was get in the phonebook,
Pamela Durkin 17:55
right? Do the phone, Rolodex, look it up.
Michele 18:00
Get in the phone look as I can remember going places because at that point, I was doing custom window treatments, I can remember going places where there was fabric, just to hang out so that I could have a conversation with some rando who walked in, who was looking at fabric, I mean, it was definitely boots on the ground or marketing and who you know, and having other people share. It was that word of mouth buzz it was the whole thing. It certainly wasn't like having an online store slash website or presence that somebody could come in and find and start making decisions. But you know what's so interesting? I did learn a lot during that timeframe. Same thing you said I learned how to do things in a very different way. And I think a lot of people think that I'm very much an extrovert, I would say and then maybe an extroverted introvert. But I definitely I love people and I can be around people, but I can't do it all the time. I have to, I have to pull back and pull away. I hate calling and asking for things. If people ask me, I'm gonna usually say, you know, within reason, I would say yes. But like I can remember even when my kids were in band and Boy Scouts, we would have to go around the local camp. I was just like, can I just give you a check? Please don't make us get please don't make me here. Yes, because I hate it. I hate asking for things, which is actually a very big limiter when you're trying to connect because you should be able to do that. But I struggled with it because I just I would rather just stroke a check or just say yes, you know, but I'm not bothered when people ask me, so I don't know why I feel like I don't know. I guess I feel like I'm imposing so I hate
Pamela Durkin 19:39
Yeah. I think it probably has to do something with either your upbringing or your personality. Well, yeah, I guess. Yeah. I just read a book. Have you read this book, the book called The Big Leap. Have you read that book?
Michele 19:51
I have not.
Pamela Durkin 19:52
So that book I just finished that book and it's it's really quite enlightening and a lot of it talks about the way that we react to things now or as adults really stems back to something that's happened in our past, probably our childhood and in a way that we protected ourselves in some childhood situation. And so it was, it was like, there was a lot of aha moments going on in that book.
Michele 20:14
I may have to go grab that. Well, I do know that I grew up in an area where people took care of themselves, you did your own thing you depend on ask for help, very independent. So I don't disagree that that was probably part of it. It wasn't very much connected. But again, the lessons we learned whatever we learned to work through to get over to move forward, now I actually love connecting, I just connect in a way that's comfortable for me. Instead of again, you're supposed to, it's like, okay, I understand connections important. How do I connect in a way that feels authentic? And that feels in alignment and doesn't feel sleazy? And I do think that's important. So, quick question for you real quick, on the very, very beginning, where you were begging and borrowing and calling and doing all the things to get your business kicked off really well. Were you wildly profitable at the very, very beginning?
Pamela Durkin 21:13
No, no, I was just happy to Well, I mean, I also was juggling, you know, a baby. I did have, you know, the baby was in daycare at the time. But you know, I'm still dealing with that situation. But yeah, absolutely not. Because I was just so happy to get work. I was doing anything I could, and it didn't matter, you know, getting paid was almost the lowest item on the list, right? It was just feeling like I had worth because someone was willing to hire me, regardless of how much that was. And so, yeah, I think that was just getting the work was the biggest hurdle. I was proud for that. It didn't matter if I was getting paid money.
Michele 22:01
It becomes that initial payoff, right? It becomes the initial, it's like that is the payment. I always go back to the Sally Fields where she stands up at the Academy Awards. She's like you'd like me, you really liked me. That that was how she felt worthwhile and felt validated, if you will, in the in the body of work that she produced. Alright, so you learned through all of that how to be profitable. Yes. And you learned how to make decisions for your business that made it sustainable, but that also still supported your client. And then at some point in your journey you picked up and moved to Florida? I did, which means that you probably had. Yeah. All right. So and I asked that that way, because my guess is when you built the second time, in Florida, you brought all the lessons learned with you into your new build. Is that the case?
Pamela Durkin 22:56
Yeah, I definitely, of course, we talked about this prior to recording is that the lessons learned the hard way are the ones that stick with us the most. Because we've been wounded by those. And we're, we vow never to do them again. So when we moved to Florida, at that point, I had two babies. And I did have another newborn when we decided to move, you know, just really was trying to figure out do I want to work for somebody do. I want to continue on my own and ultimately decided to just go ahead and stay on my own and really started to get involved with organizations in the area. So the builder organization, of course, the design organization, very active or have been very active for many years in ASCD. So started with those two organizations to really dive into the deep end of at least what was happening in the industry in this area. And that that made a huge difference. Because while getting clients One on One is how a lot of people do it, either through referrals or or, you know, client referrals. I think that it's so much better if you can make one great builder contact or one great realtor contact or one great building manager contact, they can give you five referrals a year or 10 referrals year. So putting your efforts into that relationship has so much better ROI. So that's that's how I worked the beginning of my business here in Florida,
Michele 24:32
even as an introvert. Yeah.
Pamela Durkin 24:36
Do what you got to do you know, you still got you got bills to pay, you got to do what you got to do so but
Michele 24:40
you know what, to your point, even as an introvert, you're putting your energies into meeting less people that way, because they can efficiently do so efficient. It's efficient. That's right, you're not wasting time.
Pamela Durkin 24:55
And also to uh, you know, just having that commercial background. I used to do a lot presentation. So when I got out of school, I was young, and I was doing lots of presentations those first couple years. And that was really hard for me in the beginning, I would palpitate and be really nervous and kind of stumble over my words. But thank goodness for that, because I got very confident in my presentation skills. And so I was able to put on that persona, like presentation persona, when I went to these networking events, because I was like, it's just like presenting a project, right. And so that really helped me. So that skill is so very important to talking to people, and then also learning how to connect with people quickly instead of talking about your company. But as you know, making more of a personal connection. And that's something I've even learned to hone a little better in the last couple of years is how do we connect personally, because I'm sure you talk about this, that people do business with people. Yeah, everyone's gonna think that if they're interviewing three designers that the skill sets are relatively equivalent. So now like, what is it coming down to? Maybe it's coming down to aesthetics, but it's also coming down to personality?
Michele 26:10
Absolutely. So when you moved to Florida, did you have to kind of, I'm assuming you had to at least tweak or redefine in some way who your ideal client was, because they may not have been the exact same project or style or person. I mean, I'm certainly certainly characteristics like kind willing to pay those translate. But there is when we're looking at, if you will, the avatar, it could certainly shift based on moving into, you know, the Florida market versus a New York City Market.
Pamela Durkin 26:49
Yeah, it was totally different. Because, well, down here, in where I'm in Naples, much more, I lived in an affluent area up north, but Naples is much more affluent. So there was that level change of something that I was like, Whoa, that was intimidating. The other thing is that we have, you know, at that time, when I first got here, very seasonal, it's still seasonal here, but it's changing a little bit, but so very seasonal residents. So your window of when people were here, and maybe interviewing for projects was, you know, it wasn't all year, it was certain times only so many months out of the year, and usually right before they were leaving to go back up north. So I had to really learn what was happening in this in, you know, in this location in this geography and how to handle the fact that somebody wasn't going to be here and how we were going to communicate while they weren't here and keep everything moving. So that was a very different way to learn and do business than I had ever done before.
Michele 27:57
Yeah, and I know one of the topics that you'd like to talk about, and a multitude of ways is about really creating that relationship, or that connection prior to the sale, you know, really being able, and I can imagine that if you've got a lot of second and third home clients, right? You're having to do some of that work. They're finding you meeting you there in their out, you're having to be able to find a way to have an attractive style, presents personality, and to do it rather quickly. Because they're, they're making decisions, and then they're kind of, you know, in or out the door. So Talk Talk to me a little bit about how you did that. And what made you focus in on that, because I'm certain that you at some point, it must have been, as we would love to talk about more profitable to focus on that the energy on building your relationship. But what what led you down that path,
Pamela Durkin 28:54
The path to going after more affluent clients?
Michele 28:57
No, just really well, I think that's probably part and parcel to where you live as well. But also that building of that relationship first like that, really drawing them to you and really doing the due diligence to say, I mean, just because somebody's affluent, I always used to say, just because they have breath and a checkbook that may not need to work with them, right? They still might not be my person. And so I mean, I tell people, when they call me all the time, I don't work with everybody that calls me I don't expect to, I really feel like I'm interviewing them and they're interviewing me and if we if we jive and if we're on the same journey and the same path, and if if we're meant to work together, we're both going to know it. There's an attraction that happens. There's a magnetism, there's something that says you're my person for this next amount of time. And I know that you do a lot of work in that area to make sure that that's who you're working with.
Pamela Durkin 29:53
Right. So there's a couple of parts to that the key is you're so you're referring relationships are key See, if you can develop those really well, they know the type of client you're looking for. And so that helps. So that's sort of like the first barometer where you're going to send clients your way that they know you're looking for. And that's a simple question of, you know, who's your sweet spot client, and you can ask this of, of your vendors as well, and let them tell you really the type of projects they want to work on. I also in very clear on that initial, so I do an initial call with people, I use a service called Calendly. And I think we were using that to get us set up where somebody can make that appointment, super efficient ahead of time. So you know, there may be initial contact, but then they can make like a quick 15 minute call with me. And we just talk a little bit about the project, I never run out and look at projects, I say, I just I think we should talk for a little bit, I want to hear what they say what their words are. Because you know, if they say in there, well, this is the fourth designer, you know, we've gone through four designers, there's no point there's flags and bells and whistles going off. I also do tell people of I have learned, this works for me, it's very efficient to work in a certain style. So my style is super clean. That's where my brains at, that's where I do my best work. And so do I do ask people to explain to me what their style is, and what that is. And I know that that has some gray areas to it. And we mitigate that later on. But I need to know that they're going to be within the wheelhouse that I've already set my parameter for that. And then, you know, I kind of listened to some of the words that they say they if they talking about family, and how important their home is, or the fact that they have, if they're like a CEO, or a high rank, you know, like a professional, those are the best ones for me, because they make decisions quick, they understand that they need to be hiring someone who's a expert in their own field. And we'll put trust in that person. So we kind of talk about all those things. And then if we decide to make an appointment to move forward, and I tell them exactly what you say is that this is a this is a process that we have to have good rapport. So it has to be good for you. But it has to be good for me too, because I will do my best work for you. If I feel that we have a relationship where we can discuss openly things that we like things that we don't like, and where the whole project is going to move forward. So that's super important to me, as well. And I will turn down projects if I don't think they're a good fit. So I do in the beginning of that call, say listen, this is as much of an interview for me as for you. And if I don't think it's a good fit, I'll just let you know. And I can either give you the name of somebody, or you can go on to the next, the next person on the list, if we decide to have a meeting, I go ahead and ahead of the meeting actually send them a shock and awe box. And that is a box that I send out which has a bunch of items in it. But this to your point really kind of cements that relationship ahead of the process. So in the shock and awe box, I'll put things like you know some information about me, I do a monthly newsletter. So I'll put copies of those in there. And that just gives them an opportunity to get to know me, without me being in front of them. schizo knows what I think is important as a designer, what my voice is how I interact in some ways, because I'm real chill. Even though I'm from New Jersey, I'm real chill. And I feel like any problem can be fixed if we just put a little time and effort to it. So I'm not one of those people that's going to like freak out when something goes wrong. So I want them to kind of get that sense. And then I also create a lot of boundaries in that packet, which is going to talk about I do frequently asked questions, things that come up all the time, like, how does what's the next step? Or what's the process? Or what if I find something I'm out and about? And I find something? What should I do? Or what happens when me and my spouse don't agree on something you've presented? And I answered those questions. So much more comfortable and easy to do it when you've put some thought into how you want to, you know, craft that answer as opposed to doing it in front of somebody I talk about when I take meetings and why I do it this way. And then of course, I include a couple little gifts in there for them. And I just write a little note and say, Listen, I'm giving you a lot of information to digest prior to our meeting. Here's a snack and a drink that you can have on me just enjoy it and just, you know, go through the information. And the reason I do that is because when I have that meeting with them, there's two things one, they feel like they've already gotten to know me. And if they didn't like something they've seen, they will cancel the meeting. So that's good for everybody. Right? And then The other thing is, they've had a chance to look through all this information where I've told them how these things are going to work and how we're going to move forward. And they're only going to bring up the items that are of concern to them. So I'm not giving them a bunch of information that they have to try to digest while we're in front of each other. But they can go through that information at leisure and then say, Hey, I had a question about this, or how would this work. And so the conversation becomes much stronger, because we're really talking, we're almost going to the next level, in the very first meeting.
Michele 35:33
Very quickly. You know, it's interesting, we all give what I want. So we all many of us give potential clients information prior to working with us, so that they're kind of, for lack of a better term indoctrinated into what we do and how we do it and our process. But I do really, and I know that we are been pushed to paperless society. But there is something about getting a physical reminder piece of paper, something that's beautifully crafted, that you can touch that you can feel it makes you feel like I get, I get, you know, thank you notes in email all the time, huge fan fat, like send me all your thank you notes, I'll take them. But when I get one written in the mail, I have a box, I save them. I mean, they something about them feels different, it also feels to Pamela that you have really already started investing in that relationship with them. Because you just wouldn't spend the money to put a box together. Even if you have them done in bulk, you know, you still wouldn't spend the money and the time and the effort and energy to go to the post office or to get postage put on a box to mail it to them and do all the things if you weren't somewhat willing to start down the road of investing in their project by at least being open to that. And I love how they have an opportunity to digest it before they talk to you. Because it does to me. Alright, so a couple things. Number one, I used to always say, if you don't do a 10 or 15 minute call with somebody, if you just take every call go to their house, I don't see that as profitable for a couple of reasons. One, what if you get to their home, and then you absolutely hate the project? You can't stand them, they can't stand you. You just wasted multiple hours and their time going? Why would I do that? Number two, you know, you're you're planning on these, you don't even have all the right tools with you sometimes when you go there if you didn't have a conversation prior to to know what you're walking into. And so just knowing and being able to decide quickly, I also love how your shock and awe box or even the process that you go through. And I do this as well, I love that it allows people to self edit, to immediately say, oh, I need to take a step back. Maybe this isn't for me, or that's not my style, or her timeline doesn't fit my timeline, or I need a process that is more accommodating here than there. And there's no embarrassment, it's just you take a step back, right, so much better than having to sit on a phone call with somebody or even in a meeting face to face, realizing that that's not going to work that just creates kind of shame, and frustration. And then I don't know about you bet when I go to, you know, in the past, and even now on the phone, when I go into that call, I'm excited and I am actually I'm not looking for ways we can't work together, I'm looking for ways that we can work together. And so if I come into that conversation, with preparation and with excitement that we're going to work together, and then we can't I feel let down to even on this side. It's not just the client feeling, or potential client feeling that disappointment, but I feel that level of disappointment. And I'd like to protect myself not to have a day of disappointment. So maybe it just wastes time when that time could be spent on another project. It could be spent doing work that mattered and a deeper form, it can be spent building another opportunity for communication with a better client or a better fit of a client. And so I really liked I really liked that idea that that's cool. And I bet you What do you say? Well, let me ask let me ask this. What made you decide to go this route versus doing the dribble dribble dribble of information electronically?
Pamela Durkin 39:25
Well, several years ago, maybe seven or eight years ago, I discovered a business coach that teaches magnetic marketing. And this is one of the techniques that he teaches and what I love and I adapted it for my business. What I love is that you're showing the clients, how they're going to be treated before they're hired before they hire you. And that's a hard thing to do. And how do you do that? And this is such an easy way to say Look how good I'm going to take care of you. Look how good I'm taking care of you now and we're not even you know, you haven't even hired me yet. Let's Right, and especially for a luxury service, and, you know, this this technique, you know, generally, this is like a 30 $35 investment. I mean, those jobs have been $250,000. And up, you know, so this is well worth, well worth the time and effort to do.
Michele 40:19
You know, it's true, we spend so much time caring for and preparing for our clients when they've already signed, but when we show them some of that love prior to, that actually makes the sign too much.
Pamela Durkin 40:32
They're more connected to you right away. ambiently Yes, and also to, you know, the couple of items that I put in that box are not necessarily business related, they're, I want them to get to know me. And again, that's all coming back to getting to know me, as a person,
Michele 40:48
I love that, what would you say has been the number one key to your current success,
Pamela Durkin 40:58
really getting focused on the type of client that I want to work with, and then figuring out ways to do that the most efficient way possible. And that comes down to, you know, what we talked about before is, is really partnering up with other with vendors, with builders, with realtors, and helping each other out many of us are in small businesses of five or less generally. And so, and we're doing business with businesses that are generally small businesses, so if we band together, we can really extend our reach. And that really helps us, you know, create strategic partnerships, that can really go far. And so that's where I think, you know, we, that's where I've had that efficiency, where I've got such great referring partners, and we've worked together so well, that, you know, when you get an opportunity, your close rates really, really high, because first of all, you've been recommended. So that's already pushing the sales process down, you've done the shock and awe box, you get to meet them. I mean, you're closing, much more business, and you're choosing. And I think that part of feeling in control that you can turn something down, if you need to, because it's not a good fit, is very empowering, and then feeling confident that something else is going to come in its place and that you're not going to be left destitute. I mean, of course, you always had that little item in the back of her mind. But there's ways to mitigate that. And so I think that's super important. Yeah, what's
Michele 42:31
So cool is when you build these partnerships with people and other businesses that are very like minded right there they are in alignment with with you. It's almost like it gives them the freedom as well to say yes to a project because they know that 90, not that you are required to do any project that anybody refers to you, but they know that this is also a project that could be in your sweet spot. So there they have like this freedom to maybe say yes, because they know that you're probably going to say yes, I think there's also that transfer of trust. And we just cannot undermine the importance of that. When when this person transfers that trust to you. You're right, it's already moved from that no light trust, like they've sped up that process in such a way that the person's like, oh, my gosh, but you've been recommended, as you know, the best and this or the right person for this or the great fit for that. That's already playing in their mind when they come in. So now hopefully, if they are the right fit, they're looking for ways to also say yes, yes, as quickly as possible. Yeah, versus, you know, that's what at the outset, let me say this, and you probably have seen this play out as well. When I am I'm right now looking to form a few other partnerships to support my clients and other people just to be able to refer like, oh, yeah, you can go here for that. You can go here for that. And I'm calling these people, I'm literally reaching out to them and going, you know, hey, looking for a bookkeeper that does this. If you do this, I got a list of clients, I'd love to send to you. Can we have a conversation and talk? It's been really interesting to see the responses back from that
Pamela Durkin 44:17
they're shocked that someone wants to help them. Yeah,
Michele 44:20
They're shocked that somebody wants to help them or, like there is there is one particular one that I reached out to that we have some level of overlap in what we do, but I'm not a bookkeeper or accountant. So mine's more of high level strategy. And then I hand it off to the other experts in those areas. Right? And that person is so I'm gonna say short sighted as nicely as I can. That because we offer anything that overlaps. I'm their number one competitor. And I'm like I want to go look sweet girl, I can send you so much work business, right? That who cares if we overlap 10% of what we do 90% of what you do is no overlap with me, let me send like you and I overlap on even some of the ideas that Which to me just makes, it just means we're both doing really well, because we are smart. But we're doing things differently, we still have other aspects of what we do that is so different. You know what I mean? While on everything, right? Every everything depth, breath, all of it. It's just different. And so I don't have a problem with that I'm okay with that. And so I do think it's important, though, to find those people that that want to be supported, that want to be part of a network that want to refer you and as much as you're trying to refer them, you know, as much as possible, when you're way downstream. That's hard to refer way upstream. But just that has that have that, that idea that like you said, banding together, we can help each other, we can support each other. But one of the biggest questions is tell me who your ideal client is. Because if you can tell me I ask that people all the time, tell me who you love to serve. Tell me where it feels like you're gifting them instead of having to work with and for them. Because if I see and know those people, I will send them to you, the same way that you would tell somebody, I'm not the designer for you or your projects, not within my wheelhouse or whatever it is. Here's some other ones that you can check out. I do the same thing. I told somebody the other day, I'm not the coach for you right now. I think this is what you need. This is the coach, I think you should go, you know, talk to and create a conversation with to see if that's a fit, go there, and then come back here later. But but I'm not, I'm just not, we're not in the right spot to work together right now. Right? And being okay with that.
Pamela Durkin 46:55
Yeah, you have to be I mean, just I think that coaching is just like design, you know, you're getting into a relationship. That's very personal. And I think there has to be good synergies there. And I think knowing your network and building your network with like minded people, or even people that are at a point a little above you, so that it pushes you to get to that next level is so important in terms of leveling up your entire business,
Michele 47:26
right. I love having conversations with even some of the coaches that I would say, are a couple steps behind me. Because there are people that come to me that aren't ready, that, you know, are really where they are. And that's a good point, a good place to be, as well. So kind of having that network of a couple of people that are a few steps behind that you're helping pull up that are pulling you up. Yeah, I think that's how we all work together. So Pamela, one of the things I know that you've mentioned, you talk about too, is ROI and profitability. What are some of your favorite metrics to look at and review with regard to profitability in any type of form of profitability? Not even just money, right?
Pamela Durkin 48:13
Yeah, I mean, to me, time is such a huge resource that is limited. And we tend to over extend ourselves. And I know that that's super important to me, because I know also, when I get overly stressed, I actually stop being like, I stopped doing anything, because I'm sort of frozen in time. And so I'm very conscious of how I spend my time. And then also know that I need breaks in when I'm doing when I'm doing things or switching tasks. So I do use time blocking a lot. And I've also learned that during the day, there's only a few big things that I can accomplish every day. We used to, I used to think it was much more. And then I started to really look at that. And I was like, Wow, I'm getting a you know, you don't want to do 10 Things terribly. And I'd rather do two things really good. And so, you know, I've gotten really smart about what I work on why I'm working on it. Because I think that how time and profit work together and how you move your business forward is so important on what you're spending your time on.
Michele 49:28
Oh, I totally agree jumping up and down. Yeah, right. Because time, is definitely a currency. And it's not one that we get back. We do get our money back, but we don't get our time back. So once it's been it's spent. And so being very intentional with how we spend it, knowing that we're doing the highest level work that we need to do, and learning to hand off those other tasks. You know, and sometimes I do, I'm an achiever, so I like that whole task list. Check it off. Kelsee and my other team members, they laugh because we work in Asana and I love to watch the little unicorn fly across. So I just about put tasks on there so I can check them off so I can see your flyer. With that said, That's it. She goes, she even says to me, sometimes Michele, I'm gonna leave all my stuff and check so you can go check them off. So you can see the unicorn fly cuz she knows me better my day. However, sometimes I set up a time to just do those little, you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, task after task. But I cannot do that all day, every day. I just can't. I've got a couple of really big things. That's why I time blocked as well. I talked about that. Oh, gosh, a couple years ago, and Luana gars podcast. And one of the things I do is Tuesdays are all of my discovery calls. So all new clients that want to work with me, we talk on Tuesdays, Thursdays, I batch all of my podcast, so that I can stay in that zone all day long. I got to do intros, I gotta do outros. I gotta do this, I gotta do that. I can just do it. And I'm not jumping back and forth. My coaching calls are Mondays and Wednesdays Fridays business development. And I just haven't blocked out in a certain way. And over the years, it shifted and changed based on what I needed to do and how I needed to do it. Um, but I agree with you being very intentional on how we spend our time. And then tracking our time. I think that's one of the things it's eye opening, when you actually track your time, you know, and we think that oh, my gosh, that took me six hours, well, four hours was daydreaming about something else and to stressing, stressing about it, or, you know, getting twisted up about it when I could have done it in two hours if I had taken all those other things off my list. So I do think that is a huge, I agree. I think that is actually there are two areas that I see most companies where they're not making money, and they're not accounting for their time properly, and they're not marking up product properly. And if they would do those two things within their company, a lot of times it's not about working more to make more, it's about capturing the value of the work they've already done.
Pamela Durkin 52:06
Yes. And turn off the phones. Yes, you know, set a timer and 30 minutes of quiet time, you'll see how much you can get done in 30 minutes, if you're not looking at email here in the dings, you know, whatever, whatever's coming in to kind of break our concentration. And if we just even 30 minutes is a huge, a huge amount of time when you get your self trained to do it.
Michele 52:28
Yeah, I usually turn off email, I don't have any notifications anywhere anymore. I turned my phone over and I don't even have it buzz. So I'm not silent all the time. But even my I remember when I first got my iWatch watch, I was sitting there and I you know I have everything turned off and all of a sudden my arms buzzing and I'm like, Oh my gosh, it has notifications to I gotta go turn that off. Because otherwise I would have turned off everywhere else but my arms over here vibrating and distracting me. So it really is. It's like Pavlov's dog. I mean, we're dealing all over the place these days. No wonder
Pamela Durkin 53:03
We have attention deficiencies. But even with my my, my watch as well, the first thing I did was disconnect that from my phone. All I want to know is how many steps I've done and what my heart rate is. I do not need another place for someone to try to get in touch with me. Yeah. Day one.
Michele 53:23
I agree. I agree. Well, Pamela, as we're wrapping up, tell everybody about your book, because you have written a book. And I'm going to make sure that we give you a huge plug for that. And then tell them where they can find you.
Pamela Durkin 53:35
Awesome. So I have a book called Elevate. It's the ultimate guide to take your business from the ground floor to the penthouse. And it just talks about the things I've learned in my business, some of the mistakes, I've made some of the shiny objects that have taken me off my path. And then some of the ways that I've become more efficient in my business. So certainly welcome to pick that up that's available either on Amazon or where you can download it. I can certainly provide the download link if you'd like. And I am very active on social media. So if you need to find me, you can certainly find me on Instagram at Pamela Durkin, my website's Pamela-Durkin.com. And you'll be able to find me there. I'm usually on Instagram quite a bit.
Michele 54:21
Awesome. Well, we'll put those in the show notes. And I do just want to make a comment about your book. What I loved about it was it wasn't just here's what you do you have areas for self reflection, and you have areas that are almost workbook style in there. Right in that book. Right and the book. Yeah, and I'm big I usually have flags and all my books and highlighting in my book and are right in the book. But it was just a nice change to see. Not only hears what you do, but hear now take some time and think through that. And I love the prompts. So I just wanted to give you kudos on that.
Pamela Durkin 54:55
Thank you yeah, no sound that you wanted something that's going to make your life better right?
Michele 55:00
Yeah, and you have it all in one place. Here's what I learned. Here's what I chose to do. Right? Not
Pamela Durkin 55:05
right. And it's easy. You can read it pretty quickly. It's not one of those long ones, too.
Michele 55:09
Exactly, exactly. Well, Pamela, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate your knowledge and your sharing. And it's always fun to find somebody to talk to who we are kind of on some of the same path. So I appreciate your time.
Pamela Durkin 55:24
Thank you so much. It was an awesome time to be here with you.
Michele 55:27
Have a good day. Thank you, Pamela, for joining today. Networking with others who have businesses that align with ours and provide adjunct services can really be a fast track to client leads. It starts honestly with knowing who we are and what we want. If you're a high six figure or seven figure business looking for a holistic approach to scaling your business further and you want help to do it, apply for a discovery call at scarletthreadconsulting.com Let's plan to be profitable because profit doesn't happen by accident. Profit is a Choice is proud to be part of the designnetwork.org where you can discover more design media reaching creative listeners. Thanks for listening, and stay creative and business minded.