264: The Role of Storytelling in Your Email Marketing  

Michele Williams: Hello, my name is Michele, and you're listening to Profit is a Choice. With me today is Kamala Nair. Kamala is a meticulous copywriter. She's a brand voice expert, and she's a published novelist with more than 20 years of professional writing experience. Our focus today will be on email messaging surrounding your conversion and nurture campaigns. Listen in as we talk about the importance of storytelling in your messaging.

Every day, empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company financial health and enjoying the rewards of reduced stress and more creativity. With my background as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses in the interior design industry, educator, and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line, and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to Profit is a Choice. Hello, Kamala, how are you?

Kamala Nair: Hi, Michele. I'm doing really well. How are you?

Michele Williams: I am great. Now, you're not in the us right now, are you?

Kamala Nair: I'm not. I am from the US originally, but I've actually lived in England for the last seven years.

Michele Williams: I love that. I've worked with, multiple women who have picked up their lives and traveled around Europe and traveled around other places. And, you know, what a blessing to be able to get up and do that. We always talk about building a business that allows you to move around and to travel and to work from anywhere, and you've really done that. It's kind of sweet to see.

Kamala Nair: Actually, moving was the impetus for being able to start my business because I was so afraid of taking that leap and just kind of leaving the security of a job of the, you know, the typical nine-to-five job. And then moving here was just sort of like, gave me that permission and that freedom to take the leap finally.

Michele Williams: Yeah, just go for it. Well, Kamala, for our listeners, start at the beginning. Tell us a little bit about your journey. You currently help with copywriting and all kinds of things. We're going to talk more about that in a second. But I would love for people to know a little bit of your journey, like, what gave you the chops to be able to do this.

Kamala Nair: I actually stumbled into the world of interior design. It wasn't something that I set out or that I sought. I started out and I've always wanted to be a writer. I've always been drawn to storytelling and wanting to tell stories. So, after college, I decided that I wanted to move to New York and get into the magazine world. I got a job as an editorial assistant at “Parenting” magazine, which is really funny in hindsight, because I was 22 years old, and knew absolutely nothing about parenting. But I was writing these articles about, like, baby bottles and the best gear bags. But it was a great intro, kind of, into that world of magazine editorials. And while I was there, I learned about this opportunity, for an editor position at “Elle Decor”. I didn't know much about interior design at the time, but I loved the magazine. I was really entranced by the glamour of that world. I applied, I went through the whole process, and I ended up getting that job. And that was really my first step into the world of interior design. I really fell in love with it. I fell in love with not only, you know, the beauty and the glamour of the interiors, but also just learning the stories behind these interiors and learning to kind of tease out the stories and tell those stories and kind of understand the human side of what's behind those beautiful pictures.

I worked at “Elle Decor” as an editor for four years. And then I had this sort of instinctive desire to learn more about the marketing side of things. I had a really strong background in editorial, but I really wanted to understand the marketing side. So, I moved into a role as a copywriter at West Elm, the home and furnishings brand. And while I was there, my main job was writing the catalog copy. So, it was almost like a magazine. I would basically write the magazine or, sorry, the catalog copy from cover to cover. I also got kind of a front-row seat to email marketing while I was working there. Email was probably the biggest driver of sales. The copywriters who worked on email were just, like, in this dynamic world, and they were so involved in it, and I was really impressed by that. And in my next role, I moved on to, I took a sort of brief detour out of the world of design, and I got a job as a head of copy at Blue Apron, the meal delivery service, and at that time, the company was not public. They were very much a startup. And I got, again, that exposure to email marketing. And in my role as the head of copy, that was my job, to kind of write those emails to make sure that our open rates were up, that our click-through rates were up. I really got that immersion into the world of email marketing. But I really missed interior design. I really missed writing about design. And stepping away from it is what made me realize that that was kind of where my passion lay. So that was the point where I left New York and I moved to London, and I decided to take the leap and do my own thing. So, I spent a few years freelancing, and I was doing a lot of work for home and design brands. I freelanced for Casper, Brooklinen, and various home furnishings brands. I also did a lot of design journalism during that time. I wrote a lot of articles for “Lux”, which I still do. I wrote web features for “Architectural Digest” and “1st Dibs Introspective” magazine. I really got immersed in that world, and in 2022, I decided, okay, I need to just put a stake in the sand and just fully own this. That was when I decided to launch my copywriting business, which is exclusively for interior designers.

Michele Williams: You know, I don't know why, but I never really gave thought to the people that sit and write for some of these magazines. Like, and I'm talking about, like, “West Elm”. Like, I get it. I mean, I produced and helped put out a magazine for four years every other month. So, I understand the language and the writing, and I finally was able to give away all of my books on the AP method, all the different methods for how you have to write all these things. But I never really thought about, I guess, sitting down as a writer and writing a description of a chair or writing and making it different from that chair. I mean, really being able to differentiate between 14 chairs in one magazine is a big deal. And having people see themselves in their lives and what they do by what they read on the paper, not just what they see. Not just the visual aspect that is intriguing to me. I find that fascinating to even consider now. I would almost want to go back and look at some of those just to look at the copy. I don't know that I ever really thought about the copy. It clearly didn't deter me from it, but I don't know that I thought about it. That's such a cool way to kind of get into it and see what the difference is between some of these items. Because if you can differentiate, I think, verbally, between four chairs on the page, then you are able to work with four different types of designers and differentiate their work from each other. If you were, you know, supporting multiple people, if that is the differentiation.  know that you and I have talked before, you've done some work in my private coaching group and shared there, really teasing out those differences. Like, what is it that makes yours?

That's the hallmark of somebody who does really great copy, really great branding, really great website work. It's not the cookie-cutter. It's not the cut and paste. I mean, for me, I think that's what makes me a great coach. I don't have just one answer for everybody. There may be certain principles that we follow. There may be certain guidelines that we put into place, but there is true nuance for every single person, every single design, every single chair, there is something different. And to be able to articulate that in a way that resonates with the reader of the copy is really a gift. I know, I laugh sometimes, the team that I work with and that has been supporting me for years, I always say to them, I mean, I'm not great with that part. I just think, my gosh, I'm great at what I do. Why don't people work with me? You know what I mean? Hey, I told you I'm great at it. Just come on. Trust me. Come over here and let me help you. Like, let's not get bogged down in all the words. But the truth of the matter is, people need the words. They need to sit with the words. They need to chew on the words. They need to absorb them and digest them before they make a move. And I think quite often, in all aspects, if we're so focused on the doing, we're not focused on the sharing and the words and how the words matter. And that's why I have to get help for that because, for me, I'm ready to just get down to. Let me just show you how to do it. Please don't tie my hands to talk about it. Let me just show you. I mean, I'm, like, chomping at the bit. I must slow myself down. Like, you know, it's not unheard of to go slow your roll, Michele. Slowly roll. Because I'm, like, ready to get to the juicy stuff. But that stuff matters. The words around and surrounding the offer that any of us would make matter, it's almost like bringing them into it. I'm a fan of some of Southern lit.

Kamala Nair: I am, too.

Michele Williams: One of my best friends, her mom, her sister is an author of Southern Lit. And, like, Pat Conroy, just some of those kinds of things. You read it, Patty Callahan, Henry, if anybody wants to read her stuff, really great. But as you listen to it, it's just. It's this lilting. Like, it draws you into the story. You understand the characters. You understand where they are. And she's written about Savannah and the low country of South Carolina. And you can see the draping moss and you can hear the frogs. It literally puts you in the world with words to find somebody who can do that level of storytelling, I think, is a true gift. And then to pick up that gift and use it for our businesses is equally as important.

Kamala Nair: I completely agree. And like you, before I got into this whole world, I never thought about things like the story behind a chair and what makes one chair different from the other. But it's really fascinating when you actually do get into it. When I worked at West Elm, we would do these huge walkthroughs through the warehouse with the sourcing team, and they would tell us the stories about each item that was going to be in that next season. And that was when I really started realizing the power of story, and place on, you know, just pieces of furniture and how words could really elevate those pieces from something that's so much more than just something to sit on. It really is what adds character to a space. The stories behind these pieces, I'll have.

Michele Williams: To go back and look, but one of my early interviews, oh, gosh, maybe in 2019, I think it was. It was either late 18 or early 19. I'll add it to it. But I interviewed a woman, I'm pretty sure her name was Michele, and she went around and helped people document the art in their home and then put together, like, a coffee table book describing the art, where they got the art, what the art meant to them, pretty much writing not only the story of where the art came from but the story for their family around that art. And we've been in the process of renovating our home. We've redone the kitchen. We've redone the family room, we’re like, going room to room. We were painting the foyer the other day, and I have a watercolor that was done, you know, one of the sign number prints, the whole thing when we were in Bermuda, and I bought it years ago, before children. But that picture tells a different story. I had won the president's club at work. It was like 1993. I was newly married. They rented a private jet and took us all over there. Like, there's a whole story that that picture represents for me, somebody else, they would look at it and they're like, oh, that looks like a boat scene in the marina in Bermuda because it is. Oh, yeah, that is. But here's what it means to me. This is like, I don't have anything else from that trip. Like, I don't have much else. I've got a little bottle of pink sand because of the coral, but I can tell you the story from 20-something, 30-something years ago from that picture. And I think it's the same way like you're saying with the chair. All I can think of, Kamala, is if I had been invited on those tours where the sourcing team was telling me, I would be thinking, have your coffee and make sure you're listening and paying attention because that's not like a tour you want to sleep on. If you want to be able to use their words and to express and explain about what's coming later, I

 would just be, like, shuffling around with my notebook, like frantically writing notes down.

Michele Williams: Notes on the phone, like a little live wire, trying to get that information. That’s so cool. Let me ask you this. When you decided to kind of, like you said, put a stake in the sand and be like, all right, I'm going to go for this on my own. I've done it for others, clearly, I can do it. How was it starting, the business on your own? Were you, were you afraid or were you? I mean, we all have a little bit of probably anxiety and fear, but we have such excitement at the same time. Tell me about that for you, how did that feel to kind of, not only am I moving away from New York, kind of the epicenter for some of these things, you know, for the work that you've done, but I'm going to move into a different country, and I'm going to start my own thing and put myself out there. And some of the people that I'm going to be working with are, as they would say, across the pond.

Kamala Nair: That's a great question, Michele. It was kind of a mix of emotions. Like you said, there was that fear, there was that anxiety, but there was also, I think, what made me able to push through those feelings was that sense of excitement and also just this sense of deep purpose. I don't think you can start a business unless you are passionate about what you're setting out to do. I felt really passionate about combining the expertise that I had gained in writing stories about design and pulling out those stories and then also combining it with the expertise that I had developed in marketing. And I felt like I had sort of been uniquely positioned to create this business, and I felt a strong sense of purpose around it. So that's really what kind of helped me make that push as well as just the change in environment. I feel like when you're in your same routines and surrounded by the same people and the same sites. It's really easy to just keep going and just keep taking that biweekly paycheck and going into the office every day. I think moving and coming to this different location just kind of gave me the courage to take that step and do this.

Michele Williams: Because things were new so, you might as well give it a try, right?

Kamala Nair: Exactly.

Michele Williams: I'm curious. Do you think in words?

Kamala Nair: Oh, yes, definitely. Sometimes I feel like I narrate things, almost, because I'm also a novelist, and so I'm always kind of moving through the world, almost narrating things in my head the way I would if I were a character in a novel.

Michele Williams: I love that. So, it's funny, I was having a conversation with my husband, and my husband and my sons are dyslexic, so they think in pictures. So, when we talk about it, they think in pictures, you think in words. I'm a weirdo, but I think in analogies. I'm constantly comparing things. So, where you're narrating, I am doing, oh, this is like this. Oh, I'm like, dots are connecting in my brain. And the second way that I think when I think in words is I type them out on a typewriter in my brain, because I had to take typewriting in high school, and we couldn't look at any of the keys. We had to look up, and we had to type. So, if I'm trying to remember how to spell a word, I, in my brain, I see a Qwerty keyboard, and I can tell you how to spell it because of how I'm typing it. I know that was just, that was a tidbit for everybody to understand how crazy my brain works.

Kamala Nair: Yeah, totally. And I think even with the different ways that we think, whether it's through pictures or analogies or words, the one unifying element is that we all think through story. And it's like humans are wired for story. It's how we make sense of the world. So, however, that's showing up in your head, it's all about story and processing stories well.

Michele Williams: And, you know, all the way back before, we really had written language traditions and stories, and that's how everything was passed down. It was a verbal, verbal culture. Everything was talked about and shared about. And, you know, we see pictures of children sitting around their parents, and the parents telling them, this is what happened. You see pictures in the Bible of, you know, different conversations and it's all storytelling anywhere you look, a book, like everywhere. It was, you know, hearing about Aristotle sitting around and teaching people. It was just story, story all the way through. All right, so we're going to talk about the importance of storytelling in our newsletters.

Kamala Nair: Yes.

Michele Williams: And so, I'm curious, I'm assuming everybody knows what newsletters are, or I'm going to even call it more broadly, email communications. I think sometimes we use newsletters, and we think it should be something different than storytelling or conversation. Give us your definition of what you think is the most current, I'm not going to say acceptable, the most accepted marketing tool of newsletters. What does that encompass today?

Kamala Nair: Yeah, I'm glad you asked that question because I do call it an email newsletter because that's what everyone understands and for clarity's sake. But I actually really hate the term newsletter because people take it so literally and they actually send newsletters and they're really boring. Nobody wants to hear just like bullet points about your news. They don't want to hear, you know, here's my latest project, here's my latest hire, here's the latest award I won. And I subscribe to so many interior design newsletters, and so many of them are doing that. So, the way that we elevate newsletter, and I'm still trying to come up with a term that actually encapsulates what it is and what it should be. But the way that we elevate that is still sharing those things. You obviously still want to be sharing about your latest project. You want to share about these experiences you're having, but it's about sharing it through the lens of story and using story to elevate that, information so that it is actually interesting and engaging and valuable to your reader.

Michele Williams: I think that's also why the story brand method is so important, or that people use that so much on a website because it's about everything we're doing. I'm pulling you into my world and I'm pulling into my world so that you are invested in it enough to care about what's not only what's happening, but what's coming and then my place in it.

Kamala Nair: right.

Michele Williams: How do I get involved in your story? How do you get involved in my story?

Kamala Nair: Yes.

Michele Williams: So let me ask you this. What are the most basic parts or what are the must-haves in a newsletter?

Kamala Nair: Yeah. Well, before you can even get to the newsletter, you have to have the opt-in.

Michele Williams: Good point.

Kamala Nair: Exactly. It's like a piece of valuable content. Some people call it a lead magnet or a freebie that you share for free in exchange for someone's email address. So that's the first piece. You have to have a great website and you have to have the opt-in that really pulls your ideal client in so that you can capture their email address. And then the next step is actually sending out those emails.

I would say the most important elements are, number one, that you send emails regularly. I think one of the biggest mistakes I see is people sending emails really irregularly. Readers really thrive on consistency. They thrive on knowing, okay, next week I'm going to get this email from Michele, or in two weeks I'm going to get this email from Michele. And if they start getting emails one month here and then there's a three-month gap, you just lose that connection. So, the first element is that regular, that consistent sending of emails.

The second piece is, I like to think of emails as kind of an educational arc where you're taking that reader through this arc about you. So, they're learning about you, they're learning about your personality, they're learning about your story and they're learning about your work in a way that's really engaging and also providing value to them. So, in a conversion email sequence, which is an email sequence that triggers after that person has signed up for your opt-in and received your opt-in, the goal for the conversion email sequence then is to bring that person through that arc, to sort of lead them through that buyer's journey and the three stages of the buyer's journey.

So, the first step is awareness, the second step is consideration, and the third step is decision. So, you want to kind of lead them through those three stages so that by the end, by the time they're actually ready to get started with a project, they know that you're the right person for them. They know everything about you. By the time they book that call, it's a no-brainer. The call is just a formality. They're ready to hire you. So that's the second piece. And then finally I would just go back to what we were saying a little bit earlier, which is, it's about the story. It's about connecting everything that you're talking about to a story. So, one element that needs to be in your emails is vulnerability. And I think that's one thing that I see missing a lot. You really want to show your raw self. I'm not saying you have to expose everything or too TMI, but you want to be human. You want to show that there is a human side to your brand. And you don't want to just info dump stuff about yourself. You want to connect it to something that connects to your ideal client's life. So just to give you an example, let's say you're a designer with a focus on sustainability. Maybe your story, maybe your origin story is about what brought you to sustainability, what sparked your interest, what made that the path that you had to follow, and then you can connect it to something in your client's life. Like maybe it's sharing tips on how they can incorporate more sustainable elements into their home. So, it's not just sharing your origin story, it's sharing it in a way that really connects to your brand and also connects to your client.

Michele Williams: So, they're different. You kind of talked about a couple of different types of emails that can be sent right when we're looking at that. So, we have, I'm just going to break apart a couple of ideas here and then certainly expound upon it. But I think we have our, what I'm going to call our monthly consistent email communication that we would consider like a newsletter. It's not a follow-up sequence to anything. It's not a landing page sequence to try to sell. It's just that general, I am coming into your inbox every week, every other week, once a month, whatever it is, consistently. And there's a you can trust that I'm going to be there with something.

Kamala Nair: Yes.

Michele Williams: Right?

Kamala Nair: Yes.

Michele Williams: That's one type of email.

Kamala Nair: That's called a nurture email.

Michele Williams: That's right. So, the nurture sequence that we have, we're nurturing these people. We're letting them know we're still in business. We're like hanging out. I think that's what most people would consider their newsletter in that sequence. Then we have the emails that go out after a lead magnet of some type or some type of educational content or something that they have gotten from us for free. The freebie, whatever we want to call that, they've gotten that off of our website or through a webinar or through some space that we've delivered it. And then we have a follow-up sequence of 3-5-10 emails, whatever it might be, to follow up and to draw them into our world because they have expressed interest in this particular piece of information that we gave for free. And so that might be just even a little bit different. That could, that, oh, gosh, what do you call it? What's the sequence that we use for your conversions?

Kamala Nair: The conversion sequence.

Michele William: The conversion sequence could very well be different for each lead magnet and usually is a little bit different for each lead. Yes, because based on the lead magnet that different people choose, there could be a different funnel, a different path, a different way that they might want to engage with our work, or a different product that they're going after or whatever. So, I don't want to overwhelm anybody, but just saying we have different types of emails for different hopeful outcomes. Like, there are outcomes that we're expecting, and we have different email sequences to drive it. So, it's almost thinking about if we, it's no different than we have communication with the client. If I'm going in to verbally communicate with the client that I want to sell you this pillow, that's going to be a very different conversation than the one that says, I want to redo your entire home.

Kamala Nair:  Exactly.

Michele Williams: Being aware that really what we're doing in these email communications is that it's a touch point. We're just touching them, touching them, touching them so that they can start to figure it out, do I like her? Do I know her? Do I trust her? Because if I like her, I know her, I trust her. I can get through the awareness, the consideration, and the decision. If I don't know I trust you, my decision-making is going to be a very different outcome than if I do know I can trust you. That's where I think the vulnerability comes in. And I love that you mentioned having it and how to connect it, because I know I have seen some that were so stilted, you didn't even know who was behind the email, and that they're so formulaic and they are so corporate almost, and I can appreciate that from a true corporate email, and then some are almost, in my opinion, too familiar.

Kamala Nair: Mm

Michele Williams: You know, yo, yo, bruh. I'm like, that sounds great, but I don't have people in my normal life who speak to me like that.

Kamala Nair: Right.

Michele Williams: You know that that's not what, what's happening. I mean, my kids might do it as a joke sometimes, but my day-to-day is not surrounded by people talking to me like that. So, when somebody comes into my email speaking to me like that, I'm like, you clearly don't know me. This email isn’t sitting for me. You've written this in a tone and in a way that makes me think you're 14 years old. I'm not looking at it thinking that this is written for me. I think it is important the language that we use to be familiar or to create the vulnerability we really are. It goes all the way back. We're talking to our ideal people about our ideal work, using our mission, vision, and values, and showing up authentically as who we are and how we would speak. We don't need to put on airs in our email. I know that sounds crazy to even say, but in some of the emails that I read when I meet the people, the emails don’t even feel like it's them. This really needs to be a representation of the person because people are actually buying the opportunity to work with us before the opportunity for the product that we put into their home.

Kamala Nair: Yes, and that's, that is such an important point. It's absolutely essential not only that you're speaking to your ideal client and you're speaking to their pain points, their desires, and their interests, but also, as you said, Michele, that you're being 100% yourself, that you're being authentic. And if someone doesn't like that, then that's good, because then you've filtered out that person who wouldn't have been the right client for you. So, if you're putting yourself out there authentically, if you're speaking like yourself, if your brand voice is true to who you are, then you're going to attract the people that it makes sense for you to work with. And it's the same for your website. If you're yourself on your website, if you use words that sound like you, if you inflect your own personality into your copy, then you're naturally going to attract like-minded people.

Michele Williams: It's so funny. I like to say they self-edit, so I didn't do it to them. They chose it for themselves. Because truly, I mean, I read some website copy sometimes. I read newsletter copy. We all do, right? And when I see it and I look at it, I just think these are not, I don't know, it just feels so foreign to me sometimes that I don't see myself engaging further, or sometimes I literally have to block it, and go, that's just marketing, but I love the product. That's just marketing, but I love the product. I think as designers, because we are, and in the home industry at large, right, windows, whatever it is, architects, builders, those that are listening, we're going to be in their home. We're going to be in their sacred spaces of family. And so, we really want to try to speak in a way that our ideal client says, I don't mind having you in my home. I don't mind you being here. The things you're talking about as important are the same things that matter to me. Oh, wow. You had that experience. I had a similar experience. You know, I think about things like, even with just product choice, you know, I have asthma, I have allergies, I have autoimmune issues. And so, when I'm choosing elements in my home, I'm thinking, you know, off-gassing, I'm thinking, am I going to be able to stay in that home? Do I need to go get a hotel room for days? Like, what are the things that are going to matter for my health and for other people's health? And, because I have allergies and asthma and all my stuff, I'm constantly asking other people, is there something I need to be aware of? Because it is in my mind to think about because I have to think about it for myself. And so even just drawing those correlations, makes them think, okay, you've had people in your family, or you've done this for other people, or you've had this experience yourself. You're going to take my experience that I'm going to share with you with regard to something similar and I believe that you're going to be able to hold space for that. And so, it's just making ourselves open. I know Brene Brown does a lot of conversation about vulnerability, and it's so needed, but it's so hard. I think that we also have to be careful when we're vulnerable to the TMI conversation, we have to be vulnerable with people that we can trust to hold that.

Kamala Nair: Yes.

Michele Williams: So, if you don't feel like you can trust your 5000 on your email list with something, don't put it in there. I mean, that is to say, once you put it out there, it is out there. Like, I feel like I can trust people with the fact that I'm a type one diabetic or, you know, it is what it is. I can't hide it. I walk around with my pump showing half the time. So, I don't mind putting it out there. But not everybody wants to put something out there like that. They would want to be more quiet.

Kamala Nair: Yeah. It doesn't mean that you have to share everything. It's just about being like like you said, it just comes down to being authentic and being willing to show that vulnerable side of yourself and not putting up walls, not putting up a facade, just being yourself. I'm gonna say back to your point about you're in their home. I think that's what makes email so special for this industry, especially because it is a really intimate service in a way. It's so intimate and you really need someone, I think, even more obviously you want to find a designer who you love their style, and you love work that's non-negotiable. But you also want someone who you think, who you feel is going to understand you and who's going to hear you and listen to you. And email is a much more intimate and direct form of communication than something like social media. I think social media is great, but it just serves a very different purpose. Email is that direct connection with an audience of people who have chosen to hear from you. They've chosen to get this weekly or biweekly or monthly email from you. And so yeah, I think it just enables you to create that more direct and intimate connection that is going to come when you actually start working together.

Michele Williams: So back to the cadence of let's call it the Nurture series. We know that it needs to be consistent, but is there a magic spot once a month? Twice a month, every week?

Kamala Nair: Yes. So, for the nurture. I'll just start with the conversion sequence because I recommend that everyone start with that and then move into the nurture. So, for the conversion sequence, you really want to capitalize on the first 90 days after that subscriber has opted in. So, for the first 90 days or the first three months, I recommend that you send one email a week. So around twelve emails after that, I recommend that you space it out a little bit more and you can space it out to anywhere from two weeks to a month, once a month. I prefer the two-week cadence because I think it gives them just enough space, but it also just keeps you top of mind. And as long as your emails are engaging, shareable, and useful, you want people to get to that point where they're looking forward to receiving your email. And so, I think that two-week number is kind of a sweet spot. I would say the once-a-month for the nurturer is the bare minimum.

Michele Williams: Talk to me about that conversion journey. Let's start there. Because normally what we don't want to do, and I think I'm reading into this, but I think it's what you were also kind of saying, we really don't want to put them into this three-month conversion journey where we're reaching out to them once a week and then put another newsletter on top of that, that's too much information. Then more of the nurture newsletter comes after the conversion sequence has been completed so that we're not overwhelming them.

Kamala Nair: Yes, exactly. So you're not sending multiples, you're sending just the conversion emails once a week and then it shifts into the nurture sequence. And there's not this huge distinction between, it's not like suddenly you're going to shift into a totally different voice and format. It should be very fluid. It's more that the conversion series is going to be focused more on that buyer's journey. So, it's going to be addressing what are those pain points. What are those frequently asked questions that you're getting from your ideal clients? What questions do they have at each stage of that journey that I, as the interior designer, can help answer in a way that's engaging?

Michele Williams: That's what I was getting ready to exactly ask you what are some of the content features of the conversion series? And so that's it. FAQs.

Kamala Nair: Exactly.

Michele Williams: What can you expect? How to choose a designer, perhaps budget, like anything that you need to share with them so that they can make a decision.

Kamala Nair: Exactly. You want to make it crystal clear how they can work with you so they're not getting on that call with you, if you can get them to book that call with you, you've done your job. But you don't want them to hesitate to book a call because they're like, oh, I just don't know what my budget is. I don't know what their budget is. Or you don't want them to not book that call because they're like, oh, I can only book that call once I'm absolutely ready to get started. You want to just make sure those questions are answered through that conversion series and guide them through. So, at the beginning of that awareness stage, it's about helping them figure out what their problem is. And then it's a consideration. It's like, okay, does this person potentially have the tools to help me solve this problem? And then in the third stage, it's like, okay, you know, what do I need to know to actually book that call?

Michele Williams: So good! And I think, I think you bring up a good point when you're talking about the first 90 days. For some of us, that might feel like a long time. Some people, though, when they're ready, maybe they've been following you in other ways, on Instagram, on Pinterest, on your website. So, they may get a quick turnaround to that call. The minute they download something, they may think I'm going to go call right now. Boom. But it wouldn't be unheard of for it to be, a client that goes through that three-month nurturing towards conversion, if you will, because they're all nurture sequences. It's all nurturing. It's all about trying to give them information to make an informed decision.

Kamala Nair: Absolutely.

Michele Williams: Driving the decision a little bit differently based on the timing of where they are in our sales funnel.

Kamala Nair: Yeah. And when people land on your website, I would say 80% of the time they're just shopping around. They're not ready. They're not necessarily ready in that instant to hit book a call and start working with you. If they are, that's amazing, that's wonderful. But if they're not, you don't want to lose that person. And if you don't have that opt-in to capture them or to capture their email address, then you most likely are going to lose that person because, even if they absolutely love your work, in our society, where we're constantly inundated with marketing messages, it's more likely that they're going to forget about you. They might bookmark you and then forget about you, or they'll click away, and they'll forget about you, or they'll see some other designer's beautiful work on Instagram. And you don't want to lose that person because that's someone that actually did love your work. They did. Your message did resonate with them. And the only reason they might not work with you is because they're not ready at that moment. So those are the people that you want to capture and then nurture through this arc. And it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, a 90-day. Like, on day 90, they're gonna hit book a call because, as you said, they might be ready at different stages of the journey. So, what you want to be doing is offering or inviting them to book a call with you throughout that journey, or whatever that first step is that you want them to take. You want to be giving them those opportunities. And that's one thing that I see missing a lot from the interior design email series, which is that there aren't enough calls to action. I think creatives sort of shy away from doing that because they're afraid of seeming salesy. But the biggest reason why people don't take action is because there aren't calls to action.

Michele Williams: Because they don't even know what to do next.

Kamala Nair: Exactly.

Michele Williams: It's like we leave them down the path sometimes, and I've been guilty of this, and especially in my first days, I lead them down the path of giving them information. And I just thought to myself back in the day, well, I told them what they needed. If they need that, they're going to call me. But they didn't know to call me. They didn't know to fill out a discovery form. Didn't know that I would be willing to just have a conversation with them to see if it was the right timing and the readiness versus whether I have to commit or not commit. They didn't even know there was a next step and what we wanted them to do. I know that even talking, like in story brand for the website, right? Same kind of thing. If they hit your website, you've got to lead them on a path of what is the next thing to do. Because if they don't know where to go and what to do next, they're going to click away and not know what to do. Like, they don't know that I can get this free download. They don't know that I can sign up to have a 15-minute conversation to answer questions. They don't know any of these things. And so, yeah, we want people to self-edit, but if we want people to edit in, we've got to show them how to edit in and where to go next so that it doesn't feel like they're imposing, you know? I know I used to push back, and I would say, just put one CTA at the bottom. If they scroll that far, they'll get it. And they're like, Michele, some people are, like, excited at this point, and they want to do it. They don't even care about the bottom. You've got to give them an opportunity. But in my brain, I didn't want to be like the Ginsu Knives person. Buy now, buy now, buy one more. Buy one more. All of that hype makes me feel sick to my stomach. I feel ill when I think about it. So, to put it out there for somebody else, however, there is a happy medium between no CTA and beating them over the head with a CTA and the Ginsu knife thing. There's something in the middle. And I think each of us has to find where that middle ground is for us and for our leaders.

Kamala Nair: Yes. And I think it's that storytelling and it's that vulnerability, and it's that high-value content that you're sharing that makes it not salesy because you're inviting them into this experience, you're sharing with them and then you're inviting them. And I think that's what makes the difference. I know a lot of designers like to use templates and I think that that makes sense, you know, when you're starting out and you just don't have the resources, or you don't have the time. But that's why I sort of shy away from templates because I think it's that deep personalization and knowing that someone poured themselves into this story and into this email that makes it feel not like this sleazy exchange, but like I guess just that invitation.

Michele Williams: Yeah. It's a very personal thing. Right. It doesn't feel like I'm just trying to get another person. Yeah, it feels like you are really engaged and you care about it.

Kamala Nair: Exactly, it feels like this person has invested in me, they've trusted me, and now I'm going to invest in and trust them.

Michele Williams: That's right. That's right. Because the trust factor goes both ways. The no-light trust goes both ways. I think sometimes we think that all the power is in the hands of the person reaching out. We have that same power. If I don't, I don't like you and I don't trust you, I'm not going to engage with you. And so, this is the first part for that. So, let me ask this, as we wrap up, what are some of the biggest mistakes with email newsletters, outside of consistency?

Kamala Nair: Yeah. So, number one would be being boring. And I think, don't be boring.

Michele Williams: That's the title. Don't be boring.

Kamala Nair: And I know that I'm going to try to make that specific because I know that's very subjective, but I keep coming back to this. It really comes down to the story. What is the story? What is the story that you can connect to this point that you're trying to make? So rather than just saying, hey, this is our latest project, here are some pictures. It was great. My clients were really happy. Turn it into a story. Like maybe your, maybe your expertise is in mixing vintage items, vintage and antiques into a modern space. So, make it into a story about how, or into a tip article about how you can do that, and use your portfolio images to illustrate these tips that you're giving. Give it a frame that makes it engaging and interesting rather than just info dumping on people.

Michele Williams: I love that. Give it a frame. Say that again.

Kamala Nair: Give it a frame that makes it interesting and engaging to people so that you're not just dumping info and saying, here's my work. Look at it, admire it, make it interesting, make it engaging, and the way that you do that is by crafting a story around it.

Michele Williams: It's really like giving them a lens to say, here's how you should be looking at that. This is what you might want to consider versus here's my body of work. Choose.

Kamala Nair: Yes, and then the other big mistake that I would say is when you are doing this educational type of email, the tips can be too kind of broad and generic about it. So, for example, if you're that specialist in vintage and antiques, you want that to be your thing. Let's say you're a specialist in mid-century design. Instead of sending out emails about, like, here's how to decorate your holiday table, or here's how to hang a gallery wall, show your preeminence in the field, do an email about the history of mid-century modern design in two minutes, or do a video or do something that's like showcasing this specialty that you have and doing it in a way that's engaging and fun, but use that as an opportunity to show off your brand and what makes your brand special.

Michele Williams: I love it.

Kamala Nair: And that's what's going to make you stand out.

Michele Williams: Awesome. So, tell everybody, because I'm sure that there are people listening that think, this sounds great, this sounds amazing, but I can't write that story. I don't know how to. I don't know how to tell the story. I could verbally tell you the story and then you could make it beautiful for somebody else. How do they get in touch with you? Where are you hanging out, Kamala?

Kamala Nair: You can find me on Instagram or on LinkedIn. My handle is just Kamala Nair. And you can also contact me through my website. It's http://www.Kamalanairinc.com and you can just book a call with me directly through that link.

Michele Williams: There's your CTA. You can book a call.

Kamala Nair: Right, exactly.

Michele Williams: I'll have all that in our show notes as well. And I am just appreciative of the conversation around storytelling in our emails. Again, we've heard so much about storytelling on the website, but really getting into those emails and making them real and vulnerable and story-like and engaging so that our people want to read and want to be part of it.

Kamala Nair: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Michele. Thanks for having me.

Michele Williams: My pleasure. Thanks, Kamala, for highlighting the importance of storytelling in our work. and so now it's time for me to tell you a little bit of my story, because why not? Right? Let's be vulnerable.

When I started my company in 2000, I didn't know how to price my work. I didn't know how to plan for profitability, and I didn't know how to manage money in a way that was sustainable. I really struggled. I owed taxes on money that I'd already spent, and I felt a lot of shame at what I was going through. I didn't talk about it to too many people, but I kept asking a lot of questions about pricing and profits and money and found that most couldn't answer me, a long time ago, 20-something years. We didn't have the Internet the same way we do now, and information wasn't as readily available, and I felt very lonely. Once I sat down and got the basics figured out, though, I was able to move forward. But then I kept running into other obstacles. Things like, how do I plan for the future? How do I not only cover the bills and pay for what needs to be done but how do I plan for the future? I needed to make more than just enough. I had a retirement that I wanted to save for. I had college expenses coming up for my kids. We had weddings that we knew were in our future and so, I needed my business to grow with me. Then I need to know how much money I could actually take out of the business and let the business still be safe, but for me to have money to spend. Being able to work out all the money management, it's not enough to make it, you have to make it and then manage it well.

That's what I'm here to do for you. My goal is to fast-track it for you so that you don't spend 24 years running into the same obstacles that I've run into, hitting those same holes. Owing taxes on money that you don't have the money to pay the taxes on. Like, that's not the life that I would want for you, because I didn't even want it for me, and I figured out how to do it. The challenge is that finances are in every aspect of your business, every single one. Every decision you make, every hire you make, every person you let go, every client you take on, every process you build, financials are a piece of that. And so, when it's an area of a company that we don't look at or don't fully understand, it is going to lead us, perhaps, down the road of not making the best use of the money that we have. If any of this sounds like you, from startup to I'm ready to sell it, I can help you in any part of that journey. So, you can find out more about working with me by going to http://www.scarletthreadconsulting.com. There’s Work with Me, information out there, there are freebies, landing pages, and more information than you probably, can take in at one point in time. But I would invite you to jump in and connect with me in some way and let me help you because I want you to plan to be profitable. Because profit doesn't happen by accident. Profit is a Choice is proud to be part of the designnetwork.org where you can discover more design media reaching creative listeners. Thanks for listening and stay creative and business minded.