266: The Sales Process Doesn't Have to End 

Michele Williams: Hello, my name is Michele, and you're listening to Profit is a Choice.

Dr. Nadia Brown is the founder of the Doyenne Agency, a global sales and training agency dedicated to educating and equipping women business leaders to pursue their passion, own their power, and increase their profits. She is the host of the "Straight Talk About Sales" podcast and is the author of Leading Like a Lady: How to Shatter Your Inner Glass Ceiling and Sell Like a Lady: How to Master Sales with Dignity, Class, and Grace. Today we will discuss selling with integrity, how the entire company is involved in the sales cycle, and how not to be a bully in the process.

Every day, empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company financial health and enjoying the rewards of reduced stress and more creativity. With my background as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses in the interior design industry, educator, and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line, and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to Profit is a Choice.

Hi, Nadia. Welcome to the podcast.

Nadia Brown: Thanks for having me, Michele.

Michele Williams: I'm excited to talk to you. We're going to talk about all kinds of things about sales and about keeping it natural and authentic and building it into our companies. But before we get started with that, I would love for you to share with our listeners a little bit about your background, some of your entrepreneurial journey, and what brought you to what you do today.

Nadia Brown: Oh, my goodness. Quite a journey. I love to share. Part of my story is that I wasn't always great with sales, and part of becoming an entrepreneur is you have your mind focused on doing the one thing, and then you wake up and you really accept that, oh, wait, I have to do sales in order to have a business. I share that because I want people to understand that it's okay and that sales are a learnable skill. And, then through that, as I learned it, and then now, we obviously help companies with that. As part of our early journey when I launched the agency and we made that transition, we supported business owners in doing the sales for them. One of the gaps I saw, though, was that there was a lot of pressure that was put on one or two people in the company, and the rest of the company there was a massive disconnect with other people on the team, even small teams. It was like, how can we work together so closely all the time, and you have this disconnect around what sales are, but also the impact the sales have to this organization. And so that led me to start working with the teams and helping teams understand that we are all in this together. Whether the founder or the CEO is the one that's still doing the majority of closing the sales, it's still important that everyone on the team understands sales, how it works, and their role in supporting that process.

Michele Williams: Okay, so I'm going to ask a question that's a little, maybe, I don't know, maybe you'll find it normal. How do you define sales?

Nadia Brown: Ooh, that's a good question. I define sales really as those interactions to help your buyers or prospects make the decision of whether or not they want to work with the organization or the team. And I think sometimes we only think of sales in that financial exchange when you get to that stage, but you're selling all the way to that stage and you're continuing to sell even after that person becomes a client. And I think that's where the disconnect happens, because people think, well, I'm not part of that when in actuality you are.

Michele Williams: Okay, so that leads to my next question. So, this is a setup, as you can tell, only because I think we're going to speak the same language on this and because I am so focused, not that I'm not focused on sales and everything else, but I'm focused primarily as an entry point into supporting a client on what do the finances tell me? Because I can look at their financial statements and I can see a lot about their sales mindset. I can see what they're selling, I can see how they're selling it. I can see what rates they're selling it at. I can see how they're fulfilling the sale. I can see a lot by looking at a balance sheet and a P and L and AR and AP reports. Like, I can see some of the sales story, but I know the question that I have that I'm going to ask you is when does the sale begin and now that we've defined sales, when does it begin and when does it end?

Nadia Brown: Oh, Michele, you came ready today.

Michele Williams: I know I got like right to it, right? Because the truth of the matter is  I've got that love-hate thing with sales, marketing sales, the whole thing. Because in my mind it felt very Ginsu knives, you know, “buy now, buy now”, I'm dating myself, a child of the sixties, Ginsu knives, the seventies, the Ronco kind of products, you know, that very sales driven. Or I think of it, the way that it always felt for me growing up was like going into a used car lot. It just felt like there was a sliminess to it. The way that I had interpreted the data around me felt slimy. It felt like I was being pushed into something, not like I was being offered a solution to a problem and then I got to have agency with the decision to step forward or not. That's now what I know sales to be. That is not how it felt to me or what I identified as sales. I also thought the sale was the financial transactional exchange, which you mentioned a minute ago, as opposed to understanding that sales went on and you're going to share the beginning and the end, but you kind of alluded to it in the prior conversation. You know, even understanding where does profit come into play? Is profit at the moment that you make the first financial or the first even agreement and they sign or does profit come at the end after you've delivered and satisfied what the agreed upon contract says? They're so intertangled that if we don't start pulling the string and pulling it apart a little at a time, it can be so easy to go I don't like sales, or I don't do sales. You know, my husband says it all the time, I've been in software, I do everything, but I don't do the sales. And I'm like, but you are. You're doing it, and you do. You're doing it in the fulfillment. You may not have the first conversation, you may not do that cold phone call, but you certainly are part of the sales cycle because you're in business. And if we are in any part of a business, all the way down to the admin, the janitor, the person keeping the lights on, it doesn't matter what we are, we are part of a sales process. Would you agree with that estimation?

Nadia Brown: I do.

Michele Williams: Okay, now I'm going to shut up, and you tell us, when do you believe the sale begins and when do you believe the sale ends?

Nadia Brown: Oh, my gosh. I believe the sale begins in your marketing, when you're starting to talk about it, when people become aware of the organization, especially when they're starting to think about, you know, is this a solution to a problem or an answer to a desire? Because, you know, some of the work that we do isn't problem-driven, is desire-driven. And then people, because people are processing, they're researching, they're doing these things. And that's part of the reason why we do our marketing, and we do things on social media, or however we get the message out is to help people along in that decision process, and then eventually, they will speak with or engage with someone on the team to, like you said, have that financial exchange. But, then to your point, when does it end? In some instances, it doesn't have to end. There are ways that we can continue to work with clients and opportunities for us to invite them into deeper work. Even if they take a break, a pause, because they're like, okay, well, this engagement is done, and this is what a lot of organizations would sometimes do. I've been guilty of it is we're done, and Michele and I don't engage anymore. And it's like, why? You look for ways to continue the relationship because it doesn't mean they can't come back in the future or even refer others to work with your team. I think it's really like you said, we have to step back sometimes and look at the entire cycle, but even beyond, and maybe it's over when that person is no longer alive. They can literally no longer buy from you. But I think that it's really important for teams to understand that this is a long game, and even after someone becomes a client, you can lose them as a client. If we don't do the things that keep them happy, they don't have a good experience. But I think a lot of times, we leave money on the table, or we don't serve that person to the highest of our ability, because they don't understand the totality of all that we can do. And it's our job to listen for those cues, to really educate the client, even after they're a client because that relationship can deepen and continue longer than we had originally anticipated.

Michele Williams: You know, I would probably even push the boundary a little bit past that, Nadia, to be truthful, only because, and I think you'll agree with me when I say it, but you mentioned the beginning. Being with our first sales and our first market marketing, I would almost push that boundary even back further into the identification of who we are, who we serve, and how we serve them because that is right. That whole mission, vision, values, you know, ideal client. That's almost when the sale starts for us.

Nadia Brown: Yes.

Michele Williams: With our mindset of who we are and what we're going to do, and where's our lane and where are we going to stay in and how deep are we going to go or how wide are we going to go in our niche?

Nadia Brown: That's so true.

Michele Williams: It really almost starts all the way back with the ideation of who we are and who we want to be because that then informs the marketing, which is kind of that first foray into putting it out into the world, where we can actually start the sales process externally. But the sales process internally starts all the way back at the beginning, just like the internal sales process is very much every single person in the company plays a role externally even if they don't see that, they never come into contact with that person. It does make a big difference. I think if we were to break it apart even further the internal sales, ideation and process and the external sale, we can even broaden that horizon, kind of, like you said, all the way until the end. You know, it's so funny. I'm shopping around for good hair care products, so this is going to sound really silly. Maybe, maybe not. I also have some autoimmune disorders. I've got hypothyroidism, so my hair can be short and fall out and be thin, or it can grow like it's in a growth stage right now. Been years since it's done this. Thank you. I might not have but three hairs on my head again in the next six months. Like, you just don't know.

Nadia Brown: Right.

Michele Williams: I've halos, like the ones that you wear to fill it out. I've got those in my closet because my hair just goes through cycles based on the way my hormones work or my thyroid's working or whatever, and it's taken a long time to make peace with it. Well, I also color my hair because I'm a little bit older than 35, so there's some need there. But I've been searching for this perfect hair care product that makes my hair feel shiny and healthy, but that doesn't have a lot of toxicity in it. I'm saying this because as a part of the sales process, I'm trying different products, and I'm looking for certain things. I hear the messaging. They're telling me I want their product to fulfill my needs, but their products are not fulfilling my needs. So, then I'm going to the next product, and I’m jumping, and then I'm coming back again to your point earlier because they've come up with a new formulation. And I'm always so hopeful that that formulation is going to be my saving grace, you know? So, I'm constantly looking. I'm out listening to the messages of other people. I've tried it. Here's what happened when I started with that product. Here's what happened when I stopped with that product. I'm constantly, always trying to find the thing that I can be satisfied with that's going to work for me. So, it's really about, I have a problem with the way my hair feels. I have a problem with shedding. I have a problem with, you know, it's growing, it's not growing, whatever it is that it's doing based on my hormones or my thyroid, and I'm trying to find an answer, and I am the person that they're selling to. So that's, that's a position where I am in the seat of the buyer. I'm also in the seat of the seller. You know, I sell coaching and consulting services. I have financial software for small businesses that I'm selling. I'm in the position of trying to solve the problem for people. And I also know that it comes down to how do we message it. How do we say it? How do we fulfill what we've promised to do? Do we show up and do what we said we were going to do better, equal to or better than what we said we were going to do? And then I've been just as guilty as you have, of not staying in touch at the end thinking that, well, I did what they asked me to do, and we're done. Versus how do I stay connected. I've gotten so much better at staying connected. And they do come back around. I mean, I went back and tried other products that I've tried before. So, people do come back around. Talk to us a little bit about why it is so important to involve the whole team and not just the front-facing salesperson.

Nadia Brown: Oh, my goodness. I think a part of it is that it really helps create that culture and awareness. So, you take a team, and you have the front-facing salesperson, but then it's handed off to an implementation team or the people who are actually the doers. I have a team that I've supported, and they have the front-facing salesperson or in a lot of cases that was the CEO and then the coaches. She has a coaching program as well, and she has coaches, who work with the clients. What the team was trained to do was to be able to listen to the clients. As they're engaging with the clients, and fulfilling what they promised, they're also listening. So, people may say something and then they can say, you know, we can help with that or something to that effect. Even if they're not the one that actually then takes it all the way across the finish line, they can then refer, and connect that person back to the person who can. I think it's good because now it's not on just one or two people to try to be in all places all the time to hear those things. When you understand what the company sells, who are their favorite clients, and how they can really deepen those relationships, now everyone has the skillset, like you said, even down to administration. Oh, this was a really good one. A direct primary care physician who has a focus on supporting weight loss and can help people with weight loss and all the things that they do. Her front desk team would receive calls from people who wanted more plastic surgery, which they don't do, her front desk staff would say, well, we don't do that. In the conversation, once they understand we don't do that, however, we can still help you achieve your goal. The process will look better or different, I should say, and here's how it might be better. And so just really helping the team to understand that, no, you don't have to necessarily make the sale, but even those little things pique people's curiosity. Well, tell me more. Maybe I don't want to have actual surgery. This may be a better option. But if they don't know, then they're just like, nope, we don't do that here and that's the end of the conversation. Whereas now they can continue that conversation because they have that awareness, you know.

Michele Williams: In the custom window treatment industry. I will tell you that one of, or even in design, some of the best salespeople are the installers or the people that are showing up on the day of to do the final installation. I know that if they're really good and it's somebody that you trust, one of their comments usually is, while I'm here doing this install, do you have another room you'd like for us to look at? Do you have another window you'd like for us to measure? You know, is there anything else? Is there another project that you want me to just take a glance at while I'm here? Does it mean that you've got to go in and do the full design for that for free? Nobody's asking for that. But while I'm here, would you like for me to take a look at XYZ? Would you like to start? Would you like to dip your toe in the water? Would you like to? I think the other thing that's really important to that, and when I owned my own, drapery workroom, one of the things we always said was how you begin is how you end. If we started off with a bang and we had great ideas and we did all these things amazing, but we had poor installation or poor fabrication or something happened on the back end, they were not going, they were going to be left with a bad taste in their mouth, not a great taste in their mouth. I can also remember my first ten years being in software development, and I was on the development side. Well, when I first started, I was on the customer server side. I had to answer the phone calls from the help desk for people calling in, asking about how to use the software. How do I make this work? How do I make this happen? I'm over here answering calls for people saying my salesperson told me that it would be ABC and XYZ. And I'm sitting there going, our software doesn't do that. So, then I'm having to, you know, politely have the conversation with them on what it can do out of the box and what the salespeople would sell it as what it could do. They didn't say what it did do as standard, but what it could do with professional services. So, then I'm having to hopefully not make them angry, but send them off to professional services, because, yeah, it can do that with another $50,000. But, you know, I say that because even in our position, it was kind of like the person at the doctor's office. I could just say, no, it doesn't, and hang up or I could extend the conversation, but I would also be angry sometimes at how it was sold, as if it were, they were selling what it could do, not what it did do. Really just having that truth and that conversation made me realize later when I was selling my own product and service, I wanted to be able to say, here's what we do. Here's what we don't do, but here's what we have the ability to do with additional resources so that there is clarity. So, I've been on a lot of different sides of the sales process. and some were, I would say, more integrity than others.

Nadia Brown: Absolutely. I've been both. I agree. Same with you. I remember even while I was still in corporate, I would work with the sales teams, but I was part of more of the implementation. And you're right, you get those customers and they're like, well, my salesperson said, and you're like, not exactly, but then being able to talk to them and, help them to really understand. But it was helpful, like you said, because then when I became the salesperson, I probably have an overemphasis sometimes on clarity, but really helping people to understand and be clear, throughout the sales process, because I know what that is like, not only as a buyer who's been in that position, but even as a team member, to then receive someone that I sold services to, to be like, wait, what? Like what are you talking about, Nadia? So, to really have that awareness, I think it's a good thing that when you've been in those different roles when you become the salesperson, you just have a completely different appreciation.

Michele Williams: Yeah, I think every salesperson needs to sit in the role of fulfillment, because I think if you sit in the role of fulfillment, you're going to be very careful and clear and precise for, the expectations that you set during the sales process.

Nadia Brown: Absolutely.

Michele Williams: And I say that because I think that's where the integrity, that's where the feeling I had as a little girl came from and the sales process was, wait a minute, you're not on the side of fulfillment, and this is not feeling to me like what you're telling me it's going to be. So, that definitely informed my version of sales. Let me ask this before we talk about what it's like to sell authentically as a woman because I think that that's something that a lot of my listeners would be super interested in. We've talked about this idea of sales being needed, in every aspect of a company, because everybody is, whether it's just a slow internal process, and that is affecting either the beginning of the sale, the middle of the sale, or the end of the sale. Like, even if we don't think that it does every single thing, we know now that it does, how do we build a culture of everybody seeing how their role in their job fits into the sale? I know I'm really big on having everybody understand how what they do financially impacts the company. If you're bad at your job, if you're great at your job, if you're quick at your job, if you're slow at your job, if you made a mistake, if you didn't, every bit of that affects the finances, but every bit of that also affects the culture of sales. How do we, how do we build a culture where people think, I want to do that and get behind that. It's really just seeing how we fit in, right?

Nadia Brown: Oh, yeah. I think there are a couple of things. One is us as the leaders talking about the vision and sharing that. And then also when we're bringing people into an organization, sharing that up, front, it's kind of like even with sales, clarity coming into the team here, this is how we do things. These are our values. An important part of our culture is everyone understanding the sales process. And then I also think it's important that we pause, which I know is hard. We're all busy, but it's important to pause and bring teams together because to your point, sometimes it's definitely, walking that fine line of integrity, and sometimes it's just a disconnect because sales doesn't really understand how that may impact the implementation team. So, bringing those teams together sometimes, even if it's once a year to do team building, to have those conversations to see how, again, end to end, what changes, how might we make it better and have those open conversations around sales. But I think we know we can't shy away from it continuing to tie in KPIs to different roles. Like, really looking at this is important, but we can't say it's important and then we never talk about it, or we only talk about it at the beginning of the year and we're talking about goals and at the end of the year and we look at results. So, it's a really, it's a conversation where we're looking at sales, us as leaders, what are the things that we're going to be transparent about? Sometimes we lack transparency in how the company is doing and, you know, so what are the things that we're going to share, the results that we'll share with the entire company, so people really have that understanding. I think it's not just on the team, but it's also on the leadership of how we bring people in. Are we just hiring for a skill set? We also need to look at fit, and then how do we encourage those teams and people on the teams to work together so we can build that into just how we do our day-to-day so that people really understand. No, we really mean it. That sales are important. And this is how it works within this organization.

Michele Williams: Yeah. And I think so much, so often, Nadia, it's easy to look at it and kind of slam a little bit on the salespeople that they're out there just talking game. Because we know, we know if you've ever been around a salesperson, we can go somewhere and network. I'm like, oh, you're a salesman. Like, I can pick it up like nobody's business. Then there are some that just kind of slide it in and I have bought before I even realized what they did. But you can tell the ones that are, like, the natural born, they've got that charisma. It's easy to sometimes kind of slam on them just a little bit or pick on them a little bit. But I will say, I also know how important it is when you've got somebody out there doing that sell for the company, having a support team back in the office that's willing to pick up that phone and answer that question, because a lot of times they are sitting right in front of that client and understanding that our rapid speed answer to that salesperson is helping the entire company. If they're out there with that implementation team, trying to get something implemented, having the development team, having whoever it is back in the office who can answer that question, find that next thing that they're looking for is important so that we're not leaving them out there. They're not separate from the company. It is part of the company, and we're all here to start at the beginning and we're all here to end well because that's what brings people back and keeps it going. So really, I think that understanding all the different aspects makes it so much easier to do that because if you get if you're the one who's sold something that can't be done, it's nice to be able to be on the end of having to fulfill it. But by the same token, if you're the one who sold something that couldn't be done, and fulfillment's not supporting you and answering you and helping you, it's nice to see that side, too, because then you want to work as a team. Also, as you said, tying KPIs tying bonuses to company profitability, means we are all responsible for the sale at the beginning and we're responsible for it at the end. Starts, to build teamwork and make that conversation more open. What else do you need to complete that sales process? There's something that we could do here, or, there, is there a way that we can come along beside you and make that easier for you? Like, what do you need from us over here? What do we not need to say so that you don't get angry because we can't do it? Like, how do I not back you into a corner? So just really, those open lines of communication to be able to explain.

Nadia Brown: So important.

Michele Williams: So important. So, the majority, I would say a large portion of my listeners are female. And I've had this discussion many times, honestly, mostly with men, because a lot of men, especially the husbands, and if I step on your toes, just go ahead and send me an email, I'll send you one back. But a lot of times I'll hear the women say to me, my husband says I should, and then they start giving them a very corporate way of how they should go about a sale. But I'm going to tell you, in this industry, in the interior design industry, it is a very beauty-driven industry, certainly, there's form and function and all the things, but I'm talking about just the beauty, the form, right? That's a big deal. We're also in people's private spaces. Heck, we are looking at how they store their underwear. Come on. We are in intimate spaces with people. Truly. We cannot, in most cases, have an extremely corporate way of handling things. When it is, it is extremely relationship-driven. Because I would say, even though we're selling to men and women and in their homes, women are driving a large portion of the aesthetic of the home. Some men have a strong opinion, but by and large, that woman has a very strong opinion about the home that she is living in and building and designing. And so when you've got women salespeople and women who are, working on completing that sale, sitting in a home with a relationship buyer, talking about an intimate space, it is not the same as selling a piece of software or selling medical supplies. I don't care. Or financial wealth packages. It's not the same. And so, I love the men that want to come in and talk all about how we ought to be doing that, but the process, it's just different. And I want to honor that. It's different. I just need, we need to just have a moment of honor for that because it is. And so, therefore, how do we show up in an authentic way? Because it's not always what. As women, especially, like I said, I'm almost 60, it was not how we were conditioned, to do things back in the day, and I'm honest, I've had to work through a lot of what that looks like from the seventies and the eighties, and how women, we were selling Tupperware. Like, the idea of what we were selling was so different. That was our first step in selling something. It was Tupperware, or it was Avon, Mary Kay. That's what I remember. The women salespeople that came into your home like the men that came in, they were selling, you know, water purifiers and air conditioners, and it was a different process. And nobody really cared about how beautiful the air conditioner was or how beautiful the air purifier was. So just, just, you know, we've had our moment of honoring. It is different for women to go in, and especially in a home industry, in the sales process. Talk to me a little bit about that and what you've seen.

Nadia Brown: Honestly, I’ve seen that difference across multiple industries, because we, as women, like you mentioned, we just show up, different. How we typically engage with one another or how we appreciate being sold to is a different process. A lot of you know, and I know we have our broad generalizations right now, but, you know, sometimes men just want to get to the facts and they're not as focused on experience. Whereas I know me, if I don't like you, I am like, probably not buying from you, period. You know, like, so there is that really big relationship piece that is important. And then, like you said, and especially more so in this particular industry, because you are, you're in people's private spaces. They're trusting you on a big level. That part is so important. So, in addition to the honoring, I just want to also give women permission to tell their husbands lovingly, thank you, honey and we're not doing that right. It's really important on how you show up because if I try to show up in a way that's not me, that woman is going to feel that she may not know why she feels something, but she's going to feel that something is off, and that's probably going to influence her decision in a way that we don't want it to go. So, one of the things that I have clients that I ask is, in addition to as, we look at all the sales systems and stuff from end to end, how do you want people to feel and really sit with that and define that. When that woman opens the door to invite you into her home. How do you want her to feel? What do you want that process to look like? Put yourself in her shoes and build your process around that.

Michele Williams: So good. So good. You know, it's funny, in my coaching program, our second pillar is to create with intent. So, our first one is a solid foundation, mission, vision, values, and all the good stuff. But the second is to be intentional. And I, literally just said to them on the coaching call yesterday, I have to be careful about how I teach financials because I think about in my education courses, in my speeches, in my coaching, I have to be careful because people automatically, when we start talking finances, they can have this feeling of shame. They can have a feeling of, I don't get it. I don't understand. And I know that I can make people feel like not just me, but the conversation around finances can immediately make people feel stupid and dumb and less than and uneducated. Because we've already got our inner critic that's created the story, and so if I'm not careful, what I say can unleash the inner critic that they have and, you know, right. Shoot off fireworks. I even have, in the last few years, made comments to my marketing teams. We will not sell and market on shame. Not doing it. I won't do it. I refuse to do it. Like, I don't want to be ashamed, and I don't want to shame somebody else. So, what we're going to do is we're going to market, and we're going to sell on confidence. We're going to sell on ability. We're going to sell on you already have the skill set. You just might not know it. Let us help show you. Like, I want to come in and show people that they have the ability to do this, and I know that they do. Some are at deeper levels than others, but we all have this ability that are in business because there are already numbers involved. And so, to that point, when I speak, I might have to show somebody that what you're doing is not working for you, but in a way that says, but you have the ability, let me show you how. So, in other words, we might have to point it out, but we don't want to leave you there, because if we stay there, that's where we can build the model of shame, and I don't want it. You know, and, you know, the old marketing is, you the pot. You stir the pot, you make them feel shame. You make them feel the pain. You make them feel all this. And when they feel like they could jump off a building, then you move them. I want to move you faster than that. I want to point it out but go oh, quickly let's look over here. Like squirrel, squirrel, come over here with me. Don't stay there. Like there's a better way. You're so right. I know that a lot of women have said to me, I'm almost embarrassed to bring a designer into my home because what are they going to think when they walk in here? What are they going to think about me? What are they going to think about our home? What are they going to think about how we spend our money or what we've chosen to do around here? So, there's already a big vulnerability in our particular industry and space at inviting somebody into your private living quarters if it's residential, right, to have that, less so in commercial, but very much so in residential, that what are they going to think. And so just knowing that the first thing is, you know, whether you're male or female when you're walking the door, putting them at ease, that it doesn't matter. What matters is that you've called, you've got a challenge. Let's talk about your challenge, and let's talk about how we can solve that. And so, you're absolutely right, that, that intentionality of how we want them to feel, and I would go as far, and I know that you would probably agree with this, not just how we want them to feel when we come in, but how we want them to feel when we leave, even if we leave without the sale. That was always a big deal back in the day. I want him to feel great if we've made the sale, but I want him to feel great even if we didn't. I want him to feel a little bit like, I kind of wish I could have. Right?

Nadia Brown: I need to call her back.

Michele Williams: I mean, we do want in the thing. Like, I think I'll save some money and try to call her back. Like, that's not a bad feeling. But again, we don't want them to feel shame when we walk away. We don't want them to feel like they've burned a bridge. A client yesterday told me that they had been doing some networking with somebody. It was like business to business in our industry, trying to get a sale. They'd been doing some networking, networking, networking. And that the other, the second business chose to go in a different direction, but my client just stayed professional. And I get it, you know, we'll see each other at networking events, say hello, shake hands. Long story short, a year later, that second business needed something that the first business had. And they remembered and they came back across the bridge and I said to my client, if you had burned that bridge because you'd spent hours trying to get them, you know, to be educated enough to work with you, if you had said, well, I'm done with you. I have done it. I made your bed, go, you've chosen vendor B, peace out, hope you like that, like whatever. And then you show up at the networking events and you don't talk to them, and you blow them off and you side eye and you remember, talk about, but if you had done all those childhood games, the middle school stuff, that that client would not have come back to you. But when the client came back to them, it was a big sale, it was multiple six figures in the sale. It was so worth staying kind and letting them still feel respected when they made the first choice of no so that the door was open for them to make the second choice of yes.

Nadia Brown: Yes, I love that and I 100% agree. And I teach clients that as well, because whether they make a decision and they go to a different vendor, like in your example or as you mentioned earlier, they don't buy yet because sometimes they don't understand what it means. It's like, oh wait, I have to get my mind around the financials. It's the same process, though, and it doesn't mean that you necessarily spend a ton of time in that moment having conversations and continuing to educate, but this was the beauty of email automation, you can still stay in touch, you can still reach out with a phone call. We like to send sometimes little postcards because those little touch points let people know, I'm not angry, I'm not upset. I still would love to work with you when the time is right, and it keeps that line of communication and connection open so when they're ready, whether it's, I went with a different vendor, but now we need you, or it's, I wasn't ready yet, but now I am. And I've seen it happen sometimes and you're like, in your case, you know, whether they didn't buy the first time, for whatever reason, they've come back sometimes years later because we kept the lines of communication open. I think that that's really an important part. But again, when you look at the sales cycle, and sales system, how do you want people to fail? And we don't always think through all the scenarios.

Michele Williams: It's almost like we take it so personally sometimes.

Nadia Brown: Oh, yes, we do that.

Michele Williams: We feel like they're rejecting us. Sometimes it's price. Fine. Sometimes it's just timing. I know I have a client that I'm working with right now that back at the beginning of the year said, yes. And then right as we were getting ready to get started, she had to say, say, not now. Some things had come up that needed to take her time and attention and finances and I could have read that and thought, oh, gosh, this is a no, and it's lost forever, and, you know, all the different things. But here's what she said to me. She said this is what's happening. This is what's taking my time, energy, and resources, could you follow back up here? And I said, sure, sure. So, what I did was I used Asana, I went into Asana and I have a folder where for every person that I'm talking to in the sales process, the discovery call, or whatever, I have how I followed up and when we followed up and what's happening, right, so that we can follow the lead. I put a tickler on and assigned it to myself. She asked me to follow up on this date. I'm going to follow up on this date. When I followed up on that date, she's like, absolutely, so glad you followed up, ready to go, and we started. I've had more than one of those. I've had some that said I thought I would be ready at this date. I need another month or two, can you please follow up here? And I think that also is a reminder of your point earlier, Nadia, we have to stay, and we have to keep following up. We have to have a system that we stay in touch with because the sales process didn't end. It just maybe got prolonged a little bit. I've had people that came back to me and said, I know that you work with companies that are doing a million dollars or doing whatever, and I'm not there yet. I am saving up my money, but I am also working on my sales process so that I am in a position where you can help me move to the next one. And so, then they come back around again. People do that. We sometimes think that that first no is a no forever. I heard one time that no means not now.

Nadia Brown: Right.

Michele Williams: Or the next one, just move on. If it's right and the timing is right, it will come back. One of the worst sales to me is even if everything's right if the timing is off, it's horrible because it never works. Nice people, the money's there. Everything's there, but it's just the timing is off. I would rather wait for the right person, the right timing, the right dollar amount, and the right everything to get started. Have you seen the same thing just with the timing being off?

Nadia Brown: Oh, yeah. And it's funny because as you were talking, I'm like, yep, yep, yep. And then also, I think going back to something we talked about at the beginning of our conversation around, conventional or old-time sales processes or even some of the things we may even hear now, let's be honest, I heard some of this stuff, it's like, really, we still say that?

Michele Williams: I know, right?

Nadia Brown: You know, when people say no, whether it's the timing or the money or whatever, that it's somehow an excuse or they're not being honest. And it's really interesting, I did a video about this one time because it's really baffling how we know that a lot of people don't trust salespeople, and we know why. But it's interesting how salespeople are trained to not trust their clients or potential clients because if a prospect says, the timing is not right or I can't afford it yet, but I'm working to get towards that. We've been taught in some instances that that's not true, that they're not being honest with us.

Michele Williams: Honestly, we're told to almost bully them. There are some sales processes that then turn the salesperson into the bully, which I got to tell you when they show up in my house and they try to sell me something, and I give them a reason for what. And listen, I don't have to explain myself. No is a full, complete sentence.

Nadia Brown: Sentence, yes.

Michele Williams: It is. If they turn around and start bullying me, like, I am telling you, I can go zero to 100. I can be kind, and I can be nice, and I can be explanatory. We had somebody come in to try to sell us windows, and we told them, show us what you got. But they are, they have such a system, a sales system set up. They have to make the sale, I've learned this later, I did not know this at the time. They have to make the sale the moment they're in your home because if they don't and you wait and you call back, somebody else gets credit for the sale. Now, to me, that's a problem with the company's sales.

Nadia Brown: 100%.

Michele Williams: But they take that, and then now it's your challenge. It's a $50,000-$60,000 thing. I want to think about it. I didn't call you to give me a quote for me to make to make this decision today. But now you're bullying me. I finally said to them, I don't care what you say, but the fact that you need this sale, at this moment, makes me say no. It's too much, too fast, I'm being bullied. So, the answer is no, and they keep on and they keep on and they keep on. What it does is it. I dig my heels in further. Like, my guard goes up. Now I'm thinking, there's something you're hiding. Then the trust starts to erode. Even if the product's great, it's the sales system that's not great. It's not about the product. It's not about the person. Nine times out of ten, I like the person. But the process starts to make me feel like I've lost my own agency in it.

Nadia Brown: Yes.

Michele Williams: And now I'm like, now we got a problem. And so now I'm going to ask you to leave my home. And now we're done. Now I'm not buying from you, and I'm going. I'm willing to have a conversation with whoever, I've had more conversations with people on the other side who wanted to know what the problem was with the salesperson. And I'm, like, it's not the person. It's your process. Your process makes me feel ick. It makes me feel bullied. It makes me feel like I'm not being trusted or like I'm not answering. It's, it's, it's going down past my no, and into an area that I think is disrespectful. I say that because, to your point, Nadia, we have to be careful not to then become the bully on the other side. I mean, I think about coaching. My coaching and my guess is yours. I'm high-ticket coaching. I mean, I've got some low-ticket education. I've got some low-ticket coaching with, like, my CFO 2Go. But my full-blown coaching, it's high, it's high income. It's expensive. It's an investment. It just is. But it's a huge investment of my time, effort, energy, and money as well. And so therefore, if I'm having that first conversation, I'm not going to push them into making that decision at that moment, because I would not want that done to me. I would not welcome that. And so if they say to me, I need to think about this, I need to pray about this, I'm going to dig in a little bit to go what are their underlying questions that maybe haven't been voiced, but I would never force them to give me a credit card and sign a contract while we're on the phone and a first meeting, because that's the equivalent of that guy sitting in my house bullying me. I'm not going to be that person. I'm just not. And if they want to work with me and I want to work with them, it's going to be a yes. It might take a little longer in that sales process, but I can honor that as well.

Nadia Brown: Absolutely.

Michele Williams: What are your thoughts on that?

Nadia Brown: No, I agree. And that's why I brought it up because I want people to understand that I know that that is still being taught.

Michele Williams: It is.

Nadia Brown: But to your point, you had several examples where when you honored that person's, wherever they were, their decision-making ability honored that this is going on right now, but this is not forever. And then you did your part with your process and your system to remind you, because depending, you would have forgotten. So, that’s our responsibility. But when you did your part, you came back, they were ready.

Michele Williams: Yes.

Nadia Brown: And I'm sure you had a great experience. You didn't have a client who was always second guessing themselves or you because they had such a horrible experience in the sales process.

Michele Williams: It felt like a joy. It felt like we were meant to work together. This feels like a joy versus a personal feeling. That's back to that where we started with the Ronco and, the knives, the Ginsu by now, buy now, buy now. It felt coerced. And that's the thing I love. Michael Port says sales is not coercion, it is having a problem, recognizing the problem, offering a solution, and then seeing if you're meant to work together. That has resonated with me for probably 15 years, the idea that it's not coercion. I would say, to the listeners, anybody who feels coerced, should raise a flag. But anybody who's doing the coercion, you need to raise a flag as well. It needs to be a joint venture where both go into it with full agency saying, I've got the problem, you have the solution. I trust that you can help me solve this problem. To me, it's that agency on both sides. Because the minute we have to force somebody to be our client or we feel forced to be theirs, I think it's just a recipe for disaster. We know. We know when it feels forced. We know when we say yes when we should have said no, and we know how it feels to have said yes when we should have said no. And I think both of those are what cause us to have financial difficulties later. It causes us to not trust ourselves, it causes us not to trust the other person. That's just, oh, gosh, stress. I just feel it. I'm sweating. I feel the stress.

Nadia Brown: But you're right and you can't have a continued relationship when there is no trust. I think, you know, sometimes, again, in sales, people can be very shortsighted. Yeah, you may have maybe gotten a sale at that moment, but what about the long-term ripple effect? Because that person is likely never to buy from you again and they're not sending anyone else to your organization either.

Michele Williams: And you get that sick feeling in your stomach, that pit, every time an email comes through or every time the call comes through like that, I knew. I knew when I did things if every time, I would just almost feel physically ill to have to respond in some way. Here's your sign. Like, that's the sign, no doubt. So, Nadia, we could probably sit and talk about this for probably two or three more hours.

Nadia Brown: I know, right, right.

Michele Williams: Tell people what you do and where they can find you. Where are you hanging out on social media?

Nadia Brown: Well, you can find me. I'm on LinkedIn, Dr. Nadia, but I'm also on Instagram. I am Dr Nadia. And our website is the doyenagency.com. What we do is provide training and consulting to help you build your sales process and equip your team members, whether they're formal salespeople or not, to be able to support the organization in sales.

Michele Williams: That sounds amazing. Well, I really have enjoyed having you on today, and I feel like if you lived right here, we'd be hanging out, like, totally, for sure. For sure. Thank you so much for all that you had to share, and I really appreciate the conversation.

Nadia Brown: Thanks, Michele.

Michele Williams: Thank you, Dr. Nadia, for joining the podcast today. Make sure to grab one of her books, go to her website, or listen to her podcast “Straight Talk about Sales”. We're gearing up for our strategic planning event that happens every year in September, and we have a few openings for those who are new to our coaching. If this sounds like something you might be interested in, you can check out planning well at the website scarletthreadconsulting.com. We would love to meet you and support you and planning well for the year ahead. Choose to build profitability into your company with each sale because profit doesn't happen by accident.

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