279: Good Management Leads to Profitability 

Michele: Hello, my name is Michele and you're listening to Profit is a Choice. Joining me on the podcast today is Courtney Bramlett. She is the director of marketing and operations for Scarlet Thread Consulting. We are going to talk about values, how they lead to setting expectations and having accountability in our firms. It's not every day that we have everything set up so perfectly that everybody comes in and does what they do without questions or confusion about their job. We will talk through some of the things that you can do to set up practices that will help your employees or your contractors and those people that you work with all pulling in the same direction and going after the same thing. So, enjoy and listen in.

Every day, empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company financial health and enjoying the rewards of reduced stress and more creativity. With my background as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses in the interior design industry, educator, and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line, and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to Profit is a Choice. Hey Courtney, I’m excited to have you back on the podcast today.

Courtney Bramlett: Hey Michele, thanks for having me again.

Michele: You're welcome. So today we're going to talk all about team members and expectations and accountability to make sure that we're getting all the work done. I know that you and I both hear a lot about that when we're talking to the clients that we work with, especially when, like right now we're in this big season of helping them create strategic plans, right? And as part of that plan, a lot of them are talking about all the things that need to be done to help the business grow to the point that they want it to grow to. And the truth of the matter is nobody's doing this by themselves. Even if they don't have a large-scale business with five, seven, or 10 employees, they still might have an assistant or a junior designer or a workroom helper or even 1099 contract employees, or contractors they're working. And so, there's always this idea that there's more than one person trying to get the work done. Making sure that I would say that we're working with the right people, that we're setting the right expectations, and that we're holding them accountable and ourselves to get the work done is really what kind of pushes us forward and moves that needle a little bit. What do you think?

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah, and I like that you mentioned the different levels, or I guess different types of employees that people can have, especially when they're in that period where they're still working by themselves, but they need to hire someone for maybe 10 hours a week. I think we see it a lot of times where that person, that contractor, that 1099 isn't truly viewed as part of the team. So maybe they rush that hire and then they bring in somebody that doesn't align with the vision and the future of the business and they're having to flip that position to get new people in all the time. So, I think it's really also very important to develop some of these topics and themes we'll talk about today with even your first contractor, even if it's just an assistant for five hours a week. This has got to be the same expectations. They've got to be aware of the same values that someone would be if you were bringing them in for a full-time lead designer role. So, I think it's the same for both as you continue to grow the business.

Michele: Haven't you enjoyed the strategic planning course that I've been leading, haven't you enjoyed watching the participants kind of come to that moment of recognition that their why, as the owner and the beginner of the company, informed the why of the company? And then the values that they have that they bring to this business and that they are building the business upon are the same values that they're using to hire these resources, whether they're internal or external. There's this aligning of values and culture and strengths to some degree so that we can move our businesses forward. And when that light bulb goes off, they're almost like, you can see them like going through their employees or their contractors and slotting them fits, fits, fits, doesn't fit, fit, fit, fit, doesn't fit. And we've talked a lot in that course about making sure that we are looking at the values that we have and that's what we're measuring against. Right. So even if I give you a task, I'm giving you a task to do, but I want it to align with the values that the company said that we're going to do. Don't go and break every value, but still get the task done. That whole letter of the law and spirit, the law kind of thing. And so, it's just been really cool to see them like understand how I think somebody said on one of the last meetings Oh, I see the puzzle pieces coming together and I've always talked about it, right? We've done a Lego challenge. We've done all kinds of different things like businesses or puzzles, and we're putting them together, and when they see that and then they go, wow. That's why certain vendors don't work with my company. We're not aligned. That's why certain clients don't hire me. We don't have the same values. I remember one time somebody calling me and asking me if they could work with me. And I'm telling you, I could feel everything in me almost shaking that I knew it was not a good fit because what it was they wanted in their business was not what I thought was important and certainly not what I was great at doing. You know, they were coming to me, and they were a hot mess, and they just really wanted PR. And I don't do pr. I mean, it just was so not aligned. But it's nice when you can recognize how those things work because then you start to look for it. So let's jump in before we. I think we're going to spend the majority of our time today talking about expectations and accountability. But with that in mind, let's talk about the hiring process because that's where it starts, right? It starts with us defining as the owner what are the values that we're going to run the company under. And we hope that they would show up everywhere from the first interview through the hiring process, onboarding, and then in the day-to-day work, along with how we're going to work with external vendors and how we're going to work with our clients. And so, there's a good book that, there are two books that I think are really great. I'll point those out and then we can jump in and talk maybe a little more about the expectations and the accountability. But one of them, Courtney, is “Who, Not How”. And it's really talking about, not just focusing on. It's by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy. He wrote another one. I think he's the one that wrote “The Gap and the Gain.”. But the whole idea in this is not just how are we going to do it, let's identify who's going to do it. So really making sure that we are aligning those things that we have the right who on our team. And then this one, this is the book. This is the book I even used when I hired you, it's “Solve Your Number One Problem”. And it's Jeff Smart and Randy Street and it's really just knowing what to do is not the major challenge. It's finding who it is to do it. And so I thought that was just. It was a great book to help me really think about who I wanted, like, who was the person. And I think I told you that when I interviewed you. I've interviewed other people as well. But the minute I spoke to you, the things that you shared with me in your prior work and the value set that you worked under, and the way that you thought about information, not only the task aligned with what I needed done. And some of them didn't, just because they didn't. It was the character set was such an alignment. Like, I knew immediately I could feel it. I went through the rest of the interview so that I could be thorough, but, like, I knew just very quickly that the character set was in alignment for me. Do you remember how you felt during that interview process? Like being on the other side of the chair in that.

Courtney Bramlett: No, it felt it for. It felt more thorough than usual, which I appreciated because kind of like what you said, if especially the business owner, smaller business that's growing, if they don't understand their own why and values, and not just the, you know, five values that everyone tells you to write down, you know, we are, we're respectful, we're kind, you know, those aren't going to resonate. But when you can really figure out, like, what is the why, what is the driver behind what you do, and that typically comes, like we talked about, from some type of experience in your upbringing, 18 and under, that's going to drive those values. And then when you can define those, then it does become not just about, well, I just need someone to do the work. Because let me tell you, this is the same way in any type of team environment. You know, I played sports my whole life. It's the same thing in sports you can have a bunch of people who are really good at getting the task done, but if everyone's not aligned on the values and that core piece stuff might be getting done, but it's going to feel like sandpaper in that business. And then all of a sudden you are just butting heads left and right because things are not aligning with those core values. So, I think it was super thorough. You're more visibility. I know we're going into expectations, but then the expectation is more clear for the employee when they come in to work for you, so they have a better idea of what is expected of them. And how to be set up for success. I think that was probably the big eye-opener for me when we went through that process together.

Michele: Yeah, In that process, we also went through, I knew that because I worked with a recruiter. We both did. And I know they had already gone through all of their interview process, which was kind of all that beginning interview, you know, is it a good enough fit to even send it up? So that's why I didn't even revisit those kinds of things. I asked different things. But what was interesting to me was really thinking and learning to know myself. What do I really expect? I mean, I certainly expect people to get the work done. Right. I expect myself to get the work done. But to what level? And I know one of the areas that was important to me was communication. And I. I always have people say to me, Michele, you answer me so quickly, like, you don't leave me hanging. If I leave somebody hanging, it's probably because I didn't get the email. Like something happened because. And you know that about me. I am Johnny on the spot with those emails because communication is important to me. And I remember us having the conversation that you may not have the answer, but just say, hey, I got it. That's a relief for me. I expect at least an acknowledgment. You know, that's what helps us both. And I will acknowledge you and say, I'm looking at it if I don't have an answer. That's why the project management system was so important. But just being able to know that about myself, other people might not like that. They might say that makes my inbox too heavy or too much in there. But for me, it says I can because I trust you, because we've worked together, and because that was a core tenant for both of us, I can take it kind of off my list because it's on yours, right? Because we had that acknowledgment.

So let's talk a little bit about those expectations. I would say if you have clear expectations for even how you like to work, not expectations necessarily that are task-specific. Share those in the interview process and make sure the other person is willing to work under those expectations because if they can't and they won't. One of my expectations is if you screw up on it, just say, yep, I did that. I missed it. Didn't get it done. I'm sorry, I spelled that wrong. Whatever. Because then we can keep going. Right? I, like I can deal with it all day as long as somebody says, yep, that was mine because then I can figure out where we are coming from. So, for me, it was two things. Acknowledge, do what you say you're going to do, and own what you messed up. Those are just such high levels. But if somebody can agree to that, then it's like everything else you can just about work through.

Courtney Bramlett: Yes. And I love too that it was only two things. So I think a lot of people think, you know, to bring someone in or to have a high-functioning team, you've got to have pages and pages of expectations almost like rule books. People think there needs to be rule books in place. And I think you, know one of the best-performing teams that I played on that coach, every coach I had the year before, I mean 20 pages of rules. I mean you couldn't even keep up with every little nitpicky behavior. It was impossible. One that makes it really hard to manage the behavior of that person. But we had one coach who came in and it was a two-page handbook, and he had five expectations and they were so, so simple. I think it was like we are on time. We're respectful. A simple one might be that we are to serve customers, customers first. But they were just so, so simple. But then everything we did throughout the day could be tied back to these expectations.  I have this decision to make A or B, which one puts me in line with these expectations? So, it makes it so simple, which is nice.

Michele: Yeah. And when we see our expectations and our value sets are all over the place like we're saying one thing and doing another, that confuses the people that are on our team or the people that we're with. Right. They don't know what to do with that. But when we can get solid on who we are, what we do, and how we do it, then we just infuse that into every part of the business that we do. Well, I hear this a lot, how do I teach my team to think like me? Well, you teach them to be infused with the same values and expectations that you have. Well, now they can start to answer the question because I know how Michele would do it, I know how Courtney would do it. I know what they hold dear, I know what's important to them. I know how they would prioritize this. So the more that we can share it and teach it and acknowledge it and have it out front and center, the more that it's kind of absorbed as it can be. And some of it's going to be very direct. Some of it's almost an osmosis. Right. They're just picking it up by being in an environment that holds it so clear. And so, the expectations really set, I would say with job descriptions, expectations are set in that job interview, through the hiring process, the onboarding process.

So then let's talk about what happens when we actually have employees or contractors who have agreed that this is, if you will, the standard of work that I want to do and the umbrella that I want to work under, meaning values, culture, and expectations. How do we actually define those expectations as part of the team culture? Well, I think the way that we do that is the way that we express this is how those values work internally. Right. Because if we've got the values we got to look at, how does that mean you two people get to work together? How do we communicate internally? How do we raise the flag if something's wrong? How do we show up and support other people? How do we say when it's great and when it's bad and all the things in the middle? How do we point out that a process needs to be changed? Right. It's really about jumping in and saying this is how we work together and what's important. Because we're with each other for a very long time during the day.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah. And I think another good point for, you know, anyone listening, especially business owners, even ones that have employees right now, as you are building these expectations and then moving into, okay, well, how are we going to hold each other accountable? Like, when was the last time you did kind of like a gut check, you know? Okay, are the expectations that I have set for these people, am I holding myself to this expectation? Because that's going to be a big disconnect. It will be so, so hard for your employees to get on board with an expectation, a simple one. You know, we are on time or we're five minutes early everywhere we go, customers, you know, site visits, whatever it is, and you're the one who shows up 15 minutes late. It's gonna wear and tear subconsciously on your employees. So, I think that plays a big piece in accountability, too. As a business owner, if you are holding yourself to these expectations, it's a whole lot easier to instill that accountability because you are setting the standard for the organization.

Michele: I love what you said about five minutes early. My kids, when they were in the band, and the band instructor used to always say early is on time and on time is late. That was his statement all the time. Right. Which meant he expected them to be there early. But he said it so much that they could quote it. So at least what happens is it was articulated. It was not just kept quiet. Sometimes you see this all the time in marriage where we expect our spouse to do something, but we never tell them. We just quietly expect them to do it. And then we get angry that they didn't do what we quietly expected without ever saying it to them.

Courtney Bramlett: Right.

Michele: I mean, it's so ridiculous. And we all probably do it to some degree. We think they should just know. I hear that all the time. Well, we're not a bunch of kindergarteners or we're not middle school. They should know. And I'm like, don't assume they know. Tell them if you want it, say it. If you need it, put it out there. Right? Let's be honest and articulate this is what we need. I need us to be five minutes early for all site visits. I want us to have all the electronics that we need so that we are fully prepared. Like, whatever it is, don't assume they're going to osmosis, pick it up, or see it and think the same thing. I finally realized if I don't tell my family pick up anything that yours on the stairs when you walk up. They just thought I was piling stuff there for myself later. I mean, right? And so finally I was like, don't walk by those stairs unless you pick it up.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too. Like every time the team meets, whether that's a weekly cadence, monthly cadence, like five minutes of time in the beginning just to remind people these are the values, these are the expectations, these are why they're in place. This is our future state we have defined. And it's going to take this from all of us to get there. Just that constant reminder. I mean, I've worked for plenty of organizations where you get that one piece of paper that says we're trying to be XYZ and then nobody ever talks about it again. It's just move as fast as you can, get the work done, heads down, and then subconsciously, people start to get disgruntled and burnt out and resentful. And, you know, maybe you lose some people or they're fighting you left and right, but people need to know what is expected of them and why that's important. I think that's a big piece. We've been talking about that so much in the strategy course about that future state, and where are you trying to get this business? People want to know that because they want to be a part of something.

Michele: You're right. It's so not just like a one-time conversation. And that whole, well, we talked about that six months ago, I don't know why you don't remember it. As the owners of the firm, we're hopefully more reminded of it because we're building towards it. Building towards it. But to get that energy into our people, we have to bring them into the vision. We have to let them catch that excitement. They have to bring their fuel and energy to combine with our fuel and energy to move this thing forward. And so, it's that repetition. I would love to see it like these are the values. Today we're going to talk about or in this team meeting, you know, to your point, whatever cadence is, we're going to talk about how they show up with customer work. Maybe one time you talk about how they show up with your vendors, maybe you talk about how they show up in communication, how they work in the team, or how they work in your own decision-making. So you could take that one, you know, future state, that vision of where you want to go, and here are the, the values, if you will, that are the drivers for the kind of the box that we're working with then on what we think is super important and the delivery of that work. And we're going to talk about how it seriously infuses everything we do so that there's no way to pull it out. Right? You can't pull it out from the work that we do because it is so embedded in that work. And the more that you talk about it, the more they start to understand. Like for example, I've heard some use the word beauty. Okay, well what does that mean? If I were to walk into your company and you were to tell me that beauty is a value for you, that's great. But if I don't know how to use it, I don't know what it means. I don't understand that it means that in our presentations, we're not showing them working documents, we're showing them beautiful documents. We have beautiful email addresses. When we do things in the office, we care about where things go, we pick things up so that things are not cluttered like whatever beauty means. But if people don't know what the word means and how to use it, they don't know how to use it in their own decision-making. And that's what I've seen quite often even in the expectation setting. I was working with somebody the other day. Well, you heard that we were talking about it on one of the one of their whys, in their vision. And they were like, I want to be the number one. Okay, how do you count number one? What does number one mean? Like what are the meanings of words? And I think we've gotten so used to doing this exercise as a checkbox. Here are the four values. Check. But we're not really talking about the implementation of these words in our day to day. When we can talk about that and then align it with expectations of the task of the job itself, the clarity is just so much more there for us versus a fuzzy understanding of what they want us to do or how they want us to do it.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah, agreed. And I was thinking of one thing because I feel like a lot of the people that we talk to and that you coach already have a team. So, let's talk about maybe someone who has three to five people and maybe they don't have expectations and it's kind of the wild, wild west. They're blessed and they're growing, but it's coming that time where the business owner is really trying to mature her business. I've heard this idea of almost including especially people that you trust. You know, I feel like a lot of these types of businesses, the people have been with them for a while, and they've worked all the different hats and things like that. How can they include those people in building the expectations? So, it doesn't just seem like one day all of a sudden they're being thrown these random, all the rules show up one day. Yeah. How can they be, you know, would you suggest including them? And you know, if so, how would you, how would you do that?

Michele: So, I've worked with a couple of companies just like that. A couple of them I'm thinking about specifically one of them had hired like four or five new people in her company and had not sat down, and like you said, things kind of become a little bit of wild west because those people had come in after the original setting of all the expectations. And her comment to me was, I need to do a reset here. Like I need to reign some of this back in and we need, we need to talk about it. So, for her, I actually went to her place of business and you could certainly do this without me, but she hired me specifically to come in and to have a strategy day of resetting those things. And we did it as a full-on team meeting and invited everybody in. And I started by asking the team members. Some had been there a month, some had been there a year, some had been there like somewhat in the middle of that, maybe six, nine months. I just asked them, from what you have observed, what values would you say are evident in this company? And then I let them tell me and then I asked the owner what are the values in the company. And we could see where they were aligned or where they weren't. I asked them what they think the mission is of the company. Why do you think we do what we do? What do you think from what you have absorbed or picked up from being here? Then I had the owner tell us what they saw it to be. Then we merged them together into sentences and phrases that everybody felt like they were a part of and could get behind. Then we talked about where do you think the company is. Almost like a SWOT analysis, actually, it's what we did. What are the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats? Where do you think the company is succeeding? Where do you think our weak points are? What can we do? Let's talk about team. Where do these values come from, and how do they work? We just took a whole day, invited everybody in, and walked through that exercise. And what's so interesting was it put such a shot in their arm of adrenaline that they got hyped back up. Number one, they got hyped up about where the company was going and what it was doing. Number two, they got hyped up that they were included in the building of the words and the phrases. So now these didn't feel like empty, meaningless words. We want to be the number one or whatever it was, you know, that they had out there. It was no, we really think we can be, we really want to be. And this is how we're going to know that we are. You know what I mean? They felt like an ownership in the driving of that company forward. So, I would say it is absolutely possible if you don't have a team that I would say can think that way or is strategic, but we made everybody speak so it wasn't a chance for anybody to be unvocal. We even went through what is the job that you have, and what do you love to do. What do you want to learn next that fits into the mission, vision, why, and values? So, then people started telling us what education they wanted and needed so that they could do their job better so that they could be the resource that was in a company like that. It was so cool to see them do it. We sat down; we moved people to other positions when we were done, we saw where they had dreams, personal dreams that aligned with other parts of the business that they didn't even know existed when they were talking to us. It's almost like there was this realignment. Like, think of it like going to the chiropractor and everything's still there, but he or she is aligning it in a different way, and you walk out a little bit straighter and a little bit happier and a little less pain. That was the way that it worked. I think you can do it one of two ways. I think you can have a team meeting that is structured. The reason that I love bringing somebody in to facilitate it, the reason I love going in to facilitate it, is it allows the owner to sit back and listen and watch and be an active participant as opposed to them leading it. Because the minute they lead it, it changes the dynamic in the room. When I say at the beginning, you're going to be an equal team member in the gathering of this information. A lot of times they sit back and let the team do the heavy lifting and it's, it's just a different way. But you could, you could do it if you needed to. Then secondly, I would say if you wanted to do it as a, hey, we're going to reset, and I feel like maybe we need to go through these things, then you can do it more of a sharing, of information that's already been done and worked out, if you worked it out in a different way.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah, I think that exercise is awesome because I think a lot of business owners are under the impression that they have to seem like they have it all together all the time in front of their team. And what a vulnerable place to be in as a business owner because it's like you're growing, but you also have to kind of sit down with your team and say, hey, we've. I've brought all of you on, but there's still a lot of work that we need to do, and I need your help. I think that, as you said, can just really light a fire under some people because then they're a piece of that journey also. And as you said, when you can get vulnerable as a business owner with this stuff, I think you get more help and you don't feel alone. I mean, I think that's just the reality of owning a business too. Like, you're just not going to have it together all the time and you need help. And just being vulnerable, I think is super powerful in these moments.

Michele: What was, let me say this though, too. What was cool in that particular experience, and I've done that for quite a few people, and clients. What was so cool in that experience was the employees actually set higher expectations for themselves than the business owner had set for them. And when it comes to accountability, I know we're going to dive into that in a little bit, but they held themselves accountable because they were the ones who created the dream and put it out there. What was so interesting was when they felt like a part of it, they were putting out ideas and inspirations and expectations and obligations and accountability that the business owner would never have just come out and laid on top of them. They literally upped the game, and I think that was even more than some of us were expecting going in that they, you know, we even had maybe one person that we looked at or two people and thought, I don't really know how you're going to fit. And by the time we were done, we found that they fit just not in the job that they had, but they fit over here even better. It was better for their skill set, and they were excited and we were excited. So it all comes down to the open communication. Whether you are the one who is delivering it or whether you're the one facilitating it is being able to communicate about where you're going and what you're doing. And I think if we hire the right players, back to the beginning of our conversation, if we're hiring the right people and we can draw the vision for them, at least something as the business owner in the interview process, they know what, they hopefully know what they're getting into. We shouldn't get a bait-and-switch thing going on here. They're coming in excited and with ideas. And if we are actively willing to listen and collaborate with the people that we hire, it can move us further along. I know even when I brought you on, I was like, here's what I'm doing, here's what I have been doing, and you looked at it and you took it all in and you're like, well, from my experience, I'm making these suggestions, and I can't think, I might have pushed back on one or two, we've talked about that. For the most part, I say yes to most anything you bring to me because I know that you're bringing it to me with the same goal in mind. That's what's so cool about the expectations of the company. But then the expectations of the person, meaning the value set, and then the expectations of the work. And when we talk about expectations of the work, I would say digging in even further to say, when is done, done. Like my designer clients, they are constantly trying to set the expectation with their clients on when they're done, because the client's like, well, one more, you know, bookcase or one accessory or one more this and one more that, and they're just like, can I just wrap this up? I've got five more jobs I need to get to. So, being very clear about what those expectations are is important. I was telling, a client the other day when my son was little, I would send him to his room and I would say, hey, go clean your room. Well, he would get distracted with some book or some toy that he picked up, and an hour would go by, and I'd go up there, and the room had not done anything. And so, we had to sit down and have a conversation that you have to get your room clean, and then you can go do all these things that you want to do. So I took pictures, Courtney, of his room as a hot mess. And when you. He had closet doors that open. And on the left, I put a poster up that said dirty room. And I put the pictures of his dirty room. And then I helped him clean it up to set an expectation. And on the right, I put a poster that said clean room. And I had a picture of his bookcase, of his bed, of his floor, of all the different pieces and parts of his room. Then I realized I couldn't tell him to go clean his room. That was too much. The expectation was overwhelming for him. So, then what I would say at an age-appropriate level was, hey, go make your bed. Well, then he could go upstairs to his room and make his bed and look at the picture because he has a visual to see if it aligns with the expectations that we've set. And then he can say, I made my bed. Then I could say what do you want to do next. And he would be like, I want to go do the bookcase. Well, then he would go put all the books back on the bookcase and he could look at the picture and see if it was the same and then come back down. So, in other words, he had a visual that showed what it should be, what the expectation was for a clean bookcase, bedroom, toy box, whatever the item was. So often what I find is we are setting expectations that are gray at best. They're not so defined that somebody else could come in and get it done or know what needs to be done. I think we've lost the art of, setting clear expectations. We assume that they should know what to do, what we're thinking, and how we're thinking back to that. I assumed you would know what I wanted you to do. I would offer that if anybody's listening when they are setting an expectation with somebody on their team, they are being so clear. And most of them are telling me I have to slow down. And I'm like, yeah, you do have to slow down. You either have to take a picture, put a loom or a zoom video together, have an SOP process, have an example, you know, something. But you just can't assume that all these people can read your mind. So, the more clear that we can be, you know, they understand the company mission and vision and why, they understand the value set and then they understand what their particular task looks like when done well at the level that you want it, well, now there's very little wiggle room for them to not understand what those expectations are.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah, I've seen this done well, especially for a business owner that's just kind of realizing like, something's clicked and they're like, man, I've only told these people this. You know, a lot of people will say, well, I've told them. But it's one time, it was in passing, you know, it was super informal. People need it multiple times. This business owner needed to do more training, and create SOPs, like reiterate multiple times. And what she did is she actually set up on every Friday she did a 30-minute training with her entire team. Everyone had to come there. It was her doing the training. And it could be from how to do this particular task. And what's cool about when you do that, you can record it, and you can store that video for later. So, you're knocking two birds with one stone. You're doing a training with everyone, but you also are creating yourself a little database of training videos that people have access to. So that's kind of an easy way that people can start that immediately without it having to be some big formal process, I think, like SOPs. You know, before I really knew what an SOP was, I thought it was this, like, these long documents. Well, when this happens, you have to do XYZ, and if it's not 20 pages, it's not enough. But really, it doesn't have to be that intense. But, yeah, I think that's great. But I have another question because I know we've been talking about expectations, and then when we do get those expectations. Expectations started. So, let's say you are starting to reiterate an expectation, a particular expectation, but now it's the time to hold them accountable on the expectation. A lot of people, designers specifically, super creative mindsets, they're really, really good at design, but then all of a sudden, they get really good, and now they have to become a manager and that's a whole different set of skills. So you hear all the time, I don't want to be a micromanager. I don't want to, you know, just watch and. Right. I don't have time to be a micromanager. So, in your opinion, what are the differences between holding someone accountable and micromanagement? How do you avoid leaning on that micromanagement side?

Michele: Yeah. so, I've heard, it's funny, we've heard under managing, over managing, micromanaging and then good managing. There's a good book. I'll point out another one. It's called “It's Okay to be the Boss”. So good. But what it talks about is not swinging from micromanaging to undermanaging. Here's what I have done and what I have seen work really well, and people can tweak it for their own. I think we tell people when they first come in, I will be inspecting your work. Period. In other words, trust is earned. I think sometimes what's happening is we're going so fast, we're so busy, we've hired so quickly that we give out trust that we should not give out. I don't mean like, trusting them as a person, but trusting that they understand the expectations, and are equipped to get it done the way that we need it done. So, what we say is based on where you are in the job that you've come in for, I'm going to be checking a couple of things while you're doing it. When you prove to me that you can do those things without me checking them like you're consistently on it, I'll probably check something else, but I'm gonna check in on that once in a while. They always say you get what you inspect, not what you expect. And what's happened is we have a group of people out here now that have not had good management training, whether they're the owner of the company or not. And I know even in corporate, man, they put you in management training the minute you have people like you learn how to set expectations, how to hold them accountable. It really is coming down to saying, I'm going to look over your shoulder to check. Micromanaging is when you're looking at everything, and even if they got it right, you're finding something to pick apart, just to pick it apart, because you need to knock them down a notch or because you can't let go. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about saying, I need you to put together this design proposal and I want it done in Canva, and here's the template, and this is what it should look like, and I'm going to check in with you, you know, here and here, before we get to the final. Like, I'm not just going to walk in front of that client and show something that I've not looked at. Then I'm going to talk to you about it. Hey, could we tighten this up? Let's make sure we're using our company font. You know, we did this or that. You're making sure that they understand what you have put in front of them. That is necessary as they move up., Let’s use the example of somebody's coming in as a design assistant as they move up to a junior designer. I may not be checking on the same things because I'm assuming they've mastered it. I always encourage people when you know the different jobs in your company you put down what you believe they should have mastered to move up to the next level. Doesn't mean we're not going to inspect it, but I'm not going to have to look at it all the time. Then if you have it on a continuum, Courtney, let's say somebody comes in and I say you're going to be at a trust level of 3 with this work, and I'm not necessarily going to verbally tell you that, but you knock it out of the park, I'm gonna move you up to a 4 or 5, right? And if you are taking on a new skill, that new skill might be a 3 until you show me that you can do it. And so, the higher up you get, the more you do things, the less I'm going to oversee it. At the beginning, I'm going to check in quite often, or somebody will, to make sure that you're getting it right and, you know, for most people, they want you to check it. They want to know that they're doing what you want them to do the way they want you to do it. There is nothing worse than me giving an entire project or an entire job to do and nobody's around to ask questions, and nobody's checking on you. Nobody's looking over your shoulder to see if you get it right. Honestly, that's why group programs don't do so great for a lot of people is because nobody's looking at the work, nobody's helping them think through. It's like getting a book and going home and sitting down, trying to do it by yourself. You know, even in our courses, we found that the more that we have private communities, the more that we say ask your questions, tell us what you're working on, share your work with us, let us look it over, and give you feedback. The more that people get constructive, positive feedback, the more they can keep going. And there's nothing worse than to get to the end and to turn something in and you miss the mark and the whole thing is off. Everybody's upset at that point or embarrassed in front of their client or, you know, they tell you that they expect it to be done the day before the presentation, and you don't even look at it until the night before and it's not up to your standards, and you feel like you got to sit down and redo it. Whereas if you'd have been checking in all along, you would have known way before now. So, some of it is just, we're getting ourselves in trouble and then blaming it on the employee because we're not good managers. That was kind of harsh, wasn't it? But it's true.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah. No, it's so true. I mean, I remember the first time I got thrown into management. I mean, it is a completely different ball game because you do have to eliminate the need for acceptance, you want to make sure your employee really likes you, and of course, you want them to respect you, and eventually, you do want to have that great relationship. But in the beginning, they need to know that you have set expectations that you will be holding them accountable. Because at the end of the day, the job has to get done, and it's got to get done well. Because the only person who suffers when you cannot hold someone accountable or get out of your comfort zone to hold someone accountable, the only one who suffers is you. Because when that happens, you're the one who has to go in and fix the work. I can't remember what the graph is called when you scale, but you either can actually scale and rock it up by putting these processes in place, or you are gonna just go up and down, up and down, and you're just gonna ride that burnout. Or dive. And you're just gonna ride out that burnout cycle.

Michele: Yeah. I've seen people literally have to go in and let go of an entire team, and it really wasn't the team's problem.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah.

Michele: You know.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah.

Michele: It really wasn't a team issue. It was a management issue.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah.

Michele: But I think we don't know how to hold ourselves accountable. And what that means is if you put something on the calendar that is really important, it means showing up for that and being able to do it. It means if you tell a teammate, I will have this for you on Wednesday at noon. Having it on Wednesday at noon. And if you can't make it, have a way that you can go back and say something. But I'll say another part of this is sometimes we're holding people, we're setting expectations, but we're not equipping our people well. And so, the way to make it all work. Right. I talk about the 5E process, and that is we educate them first so they know what to do. We equip them. We give them everything they need to do the job, and then we set expectations, and then we empower them to do the work, and then we encourage them through the process. And if we're missing one of those, that's on us. So I usually say, if you've done all of that and you can document that you have educated them, that you have equipped them, that you have set expectations, you've empowered them to get the work done, you've encouraged them as through the process, and they still can't do it. Well, now the only reason that people don't do the work we've asked them to do is it wasn't clear, and they didn't know what they should do, they aren't able to do it, it's outside of their skill set and ability or they just don't want to. And so, we've got to figure out which one it is. And the only way to figure out which one it is to remove the variables. So, did I educate it? Is it clear? Is there an SOP? Can they see it? Do they have the logins? Do they have a computer? Do they have whatever they need, a tape measure to get it done? Do they have it? Do they have an expectation it needs to be done on this day, by this time, in this way, looking like this, you know, have I empowered them to go do it? I got out of their way and said, go do it and then encourage them. If I've done all that and they still can't get it right over and over, then we have a mismatch in the company. They're not in the right seat for the job that we need them to do.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I think what's really interesting about this whole thing, like this is not an easy thing to do, I think, like being good at as a leader, as a manager, at setting expectations and regularly holding people accountable so it's consistent, it's expected, like that's a hard thing to do. Especially because most of our clients are not only the CEO, or business owner, they're the lead design for the entire company. Like they are driving the design vision too. So, I know, like in our strategy course, we kind of tell them only two to three big things every quarter because you have 80% of your time still is client focus. This is hard, this stuff, it's hard and it's, it's challenging for sure. So, I don't want to discredit that for anyone. But one question I would like to leave our listeners with today is if you are struggling with expectations on your team and you just feel like the team is constantly missing the mark like we might just need to take a quick look in the mirror. And I know that's hard, and I feel like that's a skill all leaders really have to either get comfortable with or they have to decide, do I want to deal with that where I'm having to constantly look internal. Where can I improve? Where can I improve? Because I think at the end of the day it starts and ends with us as the business owner. And that can sometimes be a tough truth to have to swallow.

Michele: It really is, I think one element in this that we haven't really touched on, but we've kind of talked around and, and left people with the idea is this takes time. Meaning we can't have our schedule so blocked up that we don't have time to invest in other people. I was talking to the CEO of a large company like Multi Multi Multi Million a couple of years ago and one of the things he said to me, he had just been promoted probably six to eight months prior to that to that position. And I said to him, “So are you like, do you love your new job? Like, how's it going? You know, you're like CEO over this, like multimillion-dollar, like probably close to a billion at this point. I'm like, how's it going? Do you love it? He said, you know, Michele, he said, this is what shocked me. He said I thought I was going to be doing this type of work. He said, but when I got to my position, 75 to 80% is HR-related work. Only 20% was driving the business growth that I thought it would be, and I thought it would have been the opposite. He said I realize that I have to pour into the people that report to me so that they can pour into the people that report to them, and they can pour into those people so that the work gets done. And he said I wasn't ready for that. I think that that is just a stark reminder that we, when we get to the point that it's more than us, it's not still about us, carrying the same load. It's about handing off some of the load, but it's about taking time to make sure that whoever we hand that load off to can carry it and can do it. If we're not building in time for self-reflection, but time to inspect and to support our team, then we're really doing everybody a disservice because now we have people on the team that are not in sync perhaps with all the things that need to be done and you're going to find things slipping through the cracks and we don't have time to inspect it now. We're irritated and frustrated and it goes back to that visual that you gave us at the beginning, that sandpaper. And we start to see businesses that are sandpaper. I'll tell you it doesn't have to be that way, and it is going to take acknowledgment, it's going to take self-awareness, it's going to take a conversation. Do I want to manage this, or do I want to hire somebody to handle HR and training, and how are we going to get through it? But I do think the process can be done and be done well.

Courtney Bramlett: Yep, agreed. One question I'll ask you to kind of give people some quick, something quick that they can maybe put in place in their business whether they've got, you know, a 10-hour a-week employee or maybe they've got five or six employees and they feel like they're really having a hard time. They just feel like they're constantly asking that question or you know, making that statement, well, they should know how to do this. Or they’re just in that state of mind where they are just assuming that these people have what they need to be successful. What's one to three things that they can do quickly that might help alleviate some of those tasks being missed or missed or you know, things like that?

Michele: Right. Well, I always like to go back and if you have job descriptions, give everybody their job description, and ask them to review it and see how it lines up with the job they're doing.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah, that's a good one.

Michele: Because what it does is it starts to either say my job, I'm really not doing all these things, I'm going to mark it up or oh my gosh, I'm doing all of it but one, or I'm doing so much more than that. We want to know that. The second thing I would do is I would ask them to write down, so it'd be like a little exercise, right? Hey, we're going to be trying to update some of these things. We want to get everybody in alignment. Here's your job description you were hired under. Please look at it, review it, make any notes of anything you do, don't do whatever. I did this and that one that I talked to you about where I went into the team. I asked them to think about their job and to write down one or two areas that they felt like they either didn't fully get, understand, weren't educated in, or wanted to grow in. And so then, in other words, we handled it from a more positive standpoint. Tell me where you want to grow, tell me where you need more help, assistance, and guidance to make you feel better about the accomplishment, and the work that you're getting done. Then I asked them if they could wave their wand and change one thing about their role at their job, what would it be? So now what you've done is you've invited them into the conversation. You know, if after that, if all these things keep falling apart and you've done everything, then it's time to have a much more difficult conversation. Performance plans and that kind of thing. But at the beginning, we just want to see where are there missed expectations because they're not clearly identified on one side or the other. And so, inviting them in to have a conversation about that, I have found, is a better first step than coming down with a hammer. And you know, you're not doing this, you're not doing that. Firing you and starting over.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah, no, that's really good. I could talk on this topic forever. Just my background in sports, you know, it's all the same, like high functioning teams, which I think small business owners that are trying to grow and they're seeing success, you've got to be high functioning, you've got to move fast. These little areas that are sandpapery or just tough, you've got to eliminate them as soon as possible just to keep moving and growing.

Michele: So, there's a good book, “The Five Dysfunctions of a Team”, which is Patrick Lencioni. It's really, really good. We'll drop all the books in the show notes for everybody to listen to it. It really does. I know that the whole podcast is about profitability. You know, profit is a choice. We are choosing our profitability based on, you know, at this point, forget the client, we're, we're choosing our profitability based on the people that we hire, how we train them, how they show up, and the work that we all deliver. And so going back sometimes or even multiple times to the basics and then building back up, going back to the basics, and building back up really does make a difference. And I know, Courtney, you've shared this before from a sports environment, if we forget the basics, it doesn't matter if we can do some fancy footwork out there, those things don't matter if we forget that we have to catch the ball. What does it matter how great we run the bases? Like we gotta have, you know, the basic skill set. And the same is true in our business. So, there is profitability in good leadership and good management and good hiring and good expectations and in good accountability. Because I have yet to see a thriving business where every single thing was done by one person. We all need somebody. We just need the right somebodies doing the right things at the right time.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah. So, in terms of how you serve interior designers and window treatment professionals, what would you suggest to them or where have you had the most success, which program for business owners that are, whether they're hiring their first person or they've got five people, but they're really trying to establish like the baseline business fundamentals from profitability, financial, you know, that's a big focus for Scarlet Thread all the way to how to get your team aligned and set expectations, you know, which program have you seen the most success?

Michele: Yeah. So, I will say that the core of what I do is in the Designer's Inner Circle, meaning that is the educational portion, the educational library that contains everything for all of my courses that I do. So, at a minimum, signing up for Designer's Inner Circle, working through these things, and having others that you can ask questions, I think is the heartbeat. After that, I would say if, you know, if somebody said, hey, I want even more one-to-one, then there's certainly the strategy add-ons that can be in addition to that where we can sit down half day, full day, day and a half and help you build out a strategy and actually do accountability calls with you and build trackers with you and all the things to help you get where you want to go. But the Designer's Inner Circle is always going to be one of the conversations we're going to have because it's going to show up in all of my programs like that. The Designer's Inner Circle is a part of every bit of it because it's the educational heartbeat. So, if people want to know more about that, they can head over to scarletthreadconsulting.com and I have links up there on work with me and they're able to get that. Courtney, thank you so much for joining me today and having these conversations. I know you and I have a lot of these in the background and it's nice to, it's nice to be able to bring them out front and to talk about it so that other people can kind of listen in to what we're hearing because we are constantly changing and tweaking and adding into the Designer's Inner Circle to solve the, the questions and the problems and the, you know, that people are bringing to us. And I just appreciate you being part of it.

Courtney Bramlett: Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Michele.

Michele: You're welcome. And for those of you who are listening again, we would love to support you. You can go to scarletthreadconsulting.com and sign up for our newsletter. We send you actionable coaching tips twice a month and you can go ahead and start putting those into your business. Remember that creating a team will make you profitable and profit doesn't happen by accident.