288: Invest in Yourself for Business Growth     

Michele: Hello, my name is Michele and you're listening to Profit is a Choice. Joining us on the podcast today is Kacey Graham. She's the owner and principal designer of Boehm Graham Interior Design. Kacey's path started when she joined her mother in the design firm and together, they completed over 17 interior design show houses. Now Kacey runs the business with the team of her own. On the podcast today, we're going to discuss Kacey's business journey of growth and the investment that she made in herself and in her team.

Every day, empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company, financial health and enjoying the rewards of reduced stress and more creativity. With my background as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses in the interior design industry, educator, and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line, and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to Profit as a Choice.

Hi, Kacey, welcome to the podcast.

Kacey: Thank you so much, Michele. Great to be here.

Michele: So, you and I have been friends for, oh, gosh, how many years? I was trying to look it up. Was it like 2017? 2016?

Kacey: I was going to say it's at least been 8. So, I think 2017 for sure, if it had not been before that.

Michele: Yeah, we met through another person in the industry who was a drapery workroom, and I think I was coming up to teach a class in pricing up in. Wasn't I like going up to Cape Cod or something like that?

Kacey: Yeah, absolutely. And it was dreary and rainy. Just a wonderful place to welcome you to the north.

Michele: Yes, but we were in a beautiful home up there and we were all staying and coming in and I think it was a pricing course or something like that that I was teaching you. She had invited you to come in and we met and really hit it off. Just laughed and enjoyed ourselves.

I wanted to have you on the podcast because you had a very interesting background when we started. You know, a lot of people that are in the industry came out of design school and then just started their own business or went to work for somebody else and then started their own business. And you were actually in quasi-business at that point, still with your mom, who had an amazing interior design history with a business that she owned. But I want you to tell a little bit of that story, tell a little bit about how your mom got started and then how you entered into that process, because I think that's part of the journey that I really want to focus in on is how you have developed the business over the years and how it was almost forced to change just because of the changing of the times.

Kacey: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I was lucky enough to grow up with a mom who always wanted to share and show me all the wonderful things in life. My dad was a pilot for Delta, so he would go away four days at a time, and my mom was when my sister and I were growing up, a dental hygienist. And then she sort of evolved out of that and said, “I don’t think I want to do that. I think I'll go back to interior design school on Newbury Street in Boston. So, she graduated and left there and then joined a firm in Amherst, New Hampshire, roughly where we live. So, she started exposing us and we were like, what's she doing? And that's always fun. And my dad would be gone, and she said, “Do you want to move some furniture around? And what do you think if that was over there?” It was very natural to be part of the transformation in our own home or our workshops, and that was always fun. I always joke that I think I was probably 18 years old, and she would take me to antique stores, and I'd be like, I know what a whirly gig is. What other 8-year-old knows what the whirly gig is? No one. So, I think it became very natural that we, later had a partnership in this, but then she started basically her own firm in the late 80s, early 90s. This was sort of back in the days of handwriting invoices and it was very much word of mouth only. There were no cell phones or marketing that way. It was just my friend who heard that you did a great job, I'll hire you. I joined her in 1999. I graduated college and have been a pharmaceutical rep for Johnson and Johnson. I have a sales background. I love people, and I get really excited about awesome things. So, whether that was a great pharmaceutical medication for a disease state that I felt could make a difference to someone, or if it was, let's transform your home and I'm going to partner with you, and we're going to collaborate and create something awesome together, that was a very natural transition. But joining her, I had three small children at the time. And I just really wanted to go back and do something, but I wasn't sure what that looked like. I also wanted to provide something for my family that wasn't just sort of on my husband's shoulders, so she said, “Why do you, why don't you come with me for a few appointments and see if you like it?” The rest was obviously history. And that was a no-brainer. I loved meeting new people; I loved seeing their homes. And I think my brain was always solving. I think when I was little I kind of reflected on this memory, recently, and looking back, I'd drive in the car and watch as houses went by and would think they needed like two of those lights as opposed to one. I didn't know what a sconce was at the time I was little. And then I thought like, oh, they should paint those or get different shutters or change the driveway. So, you look back at your life when you're little and you think, oh. I could see how that translated. So, my mom gladly had me join her. And that was ‘99. We did our first show house together in I guess ‘99, 2000. and that was really, she had been published before, in House Beautiful. And we got published the next year by Traditional Home which was a show house publication. So, we were like, oh my gosh, maybe we're good together. This is kind of awesome. And then it became client-driven obviously and very fun from there we went on to do 17 interior design show houses together. We're very fortunate to be published many times nationally, regionally, and locally in that it was not a client-driven project, but it was our aesthetic which is sort of a clean, tailored, graphic, geometric sort of celebration of antiques, and transitional design. And then obviously partnering with clients was just where the magic really happened to collaborate and get to know a client and learn how to best put their family in great rapport in their house or great statue in their house of how they can feel the best of themselves, is just a wonderful business to be in. I love that. So that's kind of how I got started with her. And the transition of into today's world has just been night and day. I think it was the onset of phones and technology, the computer obviously of emailing, the pace, the marketing, people being able to see a portfolio, share that, share it with their friends in that way, and obviously the press obviously helped us in that way as there were people all over New England specifically, that were reading or seeing what we had done, which was pretty great.

Michele: What I find interesting is that, well, so many things, but I find it interesting that even as a young girl, you got to watch this metamorphosis of your mom. For her to go from dental hygienist work, then to go back to work on more education and then a complete career change, you actually saw it as the things in your home were moving. I don't think I've ever asked this question and have gotten an answer in the affirmative, but I always ask designers, is your home complete? And they always say, it's a work in progress. It's a work in progress because even if the room is complete, they see constant tweaking, moving, and changing. And I even made a comment to you a minute ago when we started. I remember talking to you were in that office, and you're like, girl, that was two offices ago, we're already doing the third.  Even in your own home, there's this constant merging and mixing and moving and changing and tweaking that goes on because it's a safer space for most people assuming that your spouse or partner, or other housemates, are okay with it. But it's a safer space to try things, to push the envelope a little bit, and to put things together in a way that you can start to see how it might reflect later in a client space. So, I love that you got to not only know that that's what your mom did, but you got to live it in such a way that it became real to you before you even knew the words sconce or anything else.

Kacey: Absolutely. And she was such a great teacher. She still is. So that's really great. And I think good designers always have that feeling that our brains work, that there are many different ways. I think that's the beauty of design. There are many different ways to see it, whether it's in your home, and your home is your workshop, and it's constantly changing, but it's the way we think. Like, well, it could be this, but it could also be this. So, collaborating with a client, there is that sort of pinball machine of hitting it the way you should go even though there are multiple different ways to win the game if you like it.

Michele: Yeah, I agree. You and your mom then went on to work together for many years, collaborative and as a team, right?

Kacey: Yep.

Michele: And at what point did your mom say, I think I'm interested in maybe taking a little bit of a step back or being able to travel and do some things. And as I'm getting older in life, we're all probably. You and I were talking about being empty nesters right before we got on. I mean, it's a natural progression that at some point, most people want to say maybe I still want to work, or I still want to have my foot in some of the design, but I don't want to be all day, every day, 24-7 tied to the design. At what point did your mom start kind of handing over more and taking a step back?

Kacey: I think it was back and forth for a little bit too, I think when my dad was retiring, they were able to go to Florida every winter for several months. I mean, it was three months without fail. So, I think that became clear that I'll just come back and pick up where I left off in three months. I think the pace at which the projects were going allowed her to do that, which was beautiful and amazing. And there were always people waiting when she got back, which was awesome. But I was at the point where my kids were getting a little older and they were all in school. When my youngest was in school full-time, it really allowed me to have this flexible schedule so that I could sort of do what I wanted and she was more on the retiring side with my dad and heading to Florida and sort of wanting to just enjoy her life and retirement in a different way and that became more limited. We would do show houses together at some point when maybe the multiple years of projects and clients sort of changed to us just really loving that time together, and that's sort of how that played out.

Michele: Okay, so when you came in to work with your mom, you mentioned it a minute ago too, in the ‘80s and ‘90s. I would dare say even in the early 2000s, things were very manual. I started my first company with Interiors in 2000, and I was doing a lot of stuff in spreadsheets. Like, a lot of it was very, very manual. So, I can imagine that as your business grew and as time went on, everything was becoming more and more automated, more and more digital, more and more online. That had to be a bit of a switch for you to be able to move from a more manually driven business. I mean, you're not the only one. I've spoken to a lot of designers that have been around for more than just the last 10,  or 15 years, and they say the same things. I mean, I was even laughing when I started my drapery workroom, I wouldn't know how to make something. I'd go to Barnes and Noble, get a book off the shelf, sit in the chair, read, and try to figure it out, right? I mean, everything we did, we didn't have this beautiful Internet that we have where we can just look things up. You either had to go get a textbook, or you had to dig out a resource. We were ripping pages out of the shelter magazines to put them in plastic sleeves, to put them in our binders. I was still laughing as I was throwing some of those pictures away the other day. I found them in a three-ring binder.

Kacey: I love them. I still have them. Look back and I'm like, that was good then, it's good now.

Michele: Some of it is still beautiful.

Kacey: I love it.

Michele: But that was our Pinterest board, right? We were doing three-ring binders with shelter mags and pictures cut out. Or we'd go somewhere and take pictures and create our own. Talk to me a little bit about how you have bridged that gap of the technology shift that has come into play, in particular, in interior design.

Kacey: Yeah, I mean, I think it's when you look. I mean, we're celebrating 25 years this year when my mom and I started together. And I look at it now and I think of a few things. Handwritten invoices were one. I remember a conversation when we were still working together, and maybe that was like 2010 or something like that, I remember saying, Mom, we really need a website, and she's like, no, we don't want to get too busy. Now I just think about it as a different mindset. How do we market to people that want our service and how do we find one another? I always say there's plenty of business for everyone, and there are wonderful people out there that we haven't met yet, and how do we get connected? So, the Internet has just done an amazing job of being able to connect people who should be connected or a resource. Whether it's finding patterns or whether it's finding a great new tradesperson, a new client, or a new cabinetry company, it's just been unbelievable. I think the two sides of that are sort of the business organization side of it and the invoicing. How does that work going from I'm hand delivering an invoice to this is coming from whatever our design software is, and then they pay, and it comes in through QuickBooks and it clears through the bank and these guys take care of all that. Whether it's the other side of the project management and all of the ways that we look at not only delivering the design vision to the clients and the renderings and now the woman that I work with has the ability to make it look like the client is walking around the room that we're designing for her, she or him. We're looking around like, this is what it's going to look like. This is what it's going to feel like. I mean, that is a completely different technology and that’s what people want. They've seen that, they've been exposed to that, and they're like, could you do that with my house? Absolutely, yeah. So that's amazing.

Michele: Yeah, it really has grown by leaps and bounds, and it's one of those things that we had to either embrace it or we were going to be left behind. I've met a few older designers who did not embrace it. And it is. It's a bit more of a struggle at this point because it's continuing to grow and to move so far past what it was, not that it's ever too late, we can jump in, and we can learn new things and get it done. It's just a bigger curve than if we got in when it was first starting. So, Kacey, when you and I met after that pricing class and we talked you and I worked together in a coaching relationship for quite a few years. You were telling me something though. I guess it was when you and I spoke, because here's the thing. When you're working with your mom and your business, and now your mom's taken a step out to enjoy her life, and you're going to enjoy your life inside the company, but all of a sudden, you're in-love-partner in crime here, I say that with love, but your partner in crime is gone. And that means that all of the heavy lifting of the business is on your shoulders. That means the marketing is on your shoulders, all of the financials, the operations, and organization, like every single bit of it, is now for you to do so while there's this excitement and beauty at trying and different things and there's all the good that comes with that, the glam that we would see, there is a lot of heavy that comes with it. Especially because at that time you guys didn't have full-time employees. I knew you had different contract help, part-time help, and interns at different points, but you didn't have any of that. And so all of it came back to the shoulders of Kacey pretty quickly. What was that like?

Kacey:  I remember this as clear as day, I was working so hard. I think a lot of designers in this industry were people pleasers in terms of trying to make sure you're happy and wanting the end result to be great. Sometimes that is at the emotional loss of ourselves in the process. and I think that's a whole other podcast which, I know you've covered. But I think that's an interesting perspective. But I also think that once the wheel gets going, you go, wait a minute, I'm working this hard. My clients are happy. The end result is obviously great. We are being published, we are getting great accolades. The clients are thrilled; they want to come back. They're referring us to friends. So, all signs are pointing to go. But I remember kind of having a breakdown and crying and going, I really need help. I need the structuring. And my husband, as much as he tried to help me, I was not in a place where I was open to that. I needed someone who really had a different energy and a different experience base, business mindset, and financial backing. Enter Michele Williams, Scarlet Thread Consulting. I remember crying and going, I can't afford to hire her, and it was kind of like I slapped my own face and said I can't afford not to hire her. And that was the best decision I ever made. It was genuinely like, I'm worth it, this company's worth it. And seeing the longevity down the road of that possibility was like, we're going to crush this. Like, get out of the way, we're doing this. Obviously, those are emotional conversations at the beginning like I have to do this, but I just don't have the path, I don't know where to start, I don't know where I should end up and I don't know what it looks like, and asking how can we partner to get there? And that was the first aha moment in a journey of we're all worth it. Each and every one of us is worth the time, is worth the effort, is worth the investment in ourselves. And then it's a kind of check yourself. Are you in it to win it? Are you showing up? Are you working hard? Are you willing to be working in your own company at 11:00 at night, getting up at 6:00 in the morning, are you like, I'm excited, I'm getting in my office, I can't wait to do this. That's when you know you have the buy-in for yourself. That, yeah, I'm gonna do this. And yes, I'm gonna appeal to this coach and say, what can you do to help me? And tell me what I can do to help myself. And that was the best.

Michele: It's huge. And here's the thing so often, and I've had those moments in my own career as well, right? I can remember one time hiring my own coach whose price tag was very high. And I went into it thinking, she is so expensive. And I had to have a mindset shift that, no, no, no, no. What she's doing is fast-tracking me to everything that I say that I want slash need. And this investment is not in her. Now granted, that is saying that it's the right person and the right program. So, I'm not discounting any of that. Like it's got to be worth it, salt. But I had to make an investment in myself. And I remember my husband Joel saying to me do you believe in yourself? And I was like, of course. If I was going to bet on anybody, I'm betting on me because, to your point, I know that I will put in whatever it takes to make it work. He said, “Then what do you have to lose?” Right? I will say to people sometimes who say I'm just going to go back and get a job, and my question is always kind of that whole football thing, have you left it all on the field? But did you leave it all? Are you really going to take all of that good energy that you have to go fight for somebody else's dream? Or have you totally used every bit of that energy to fight for your own? Because if you have used all of it to fight for your own and still can't do it, and then want to go, blessings, go. But if you've not given yourself the opportunity to reach your full potential, do the things that you can do with the right help, the right coach at the right time, and all those rights in place, then really, we deserve to give that to ourselves. I love how you were able to kind of go, I am worth it. I told you from the first day, I'm like, you can do this. It wasn't in any way a question of your ability to design, it was the structure and the organization around the design. I was even telling you before we came on air, I can remember, you always crack me up, you're always so funny. And you would also come down and do a couple of retreats down in the deep deep south, right down in the Isle of Palms in Charleston with me. But I can just remember times when you would just get really frustrated, but they were comical, and that you would just throw your hands up and say, “All right, all right, fine, fine, tell me one more time. Clearly, I didn't get that.” And then a couple of times, I remember I will never forget, you were the first one I heard that said, “Wait, wait, pump the brakes, pump the brakes. Back it up.” And then you were like, tell me again, tell me again. But I loved that because you weren't afraid to say, don't go forward without me. I want to go forward, and I want to get it. And you knew because we'd gone over so much that it was building blocks. Everything's building blocks. So, we can't skip over those heavy, difficult pieces. Whether it's in organization or marketing or financials, we've got to put the basic building blocks together. You pushed back enough to say, let me get the blocks. And then when you got them, you were able to move from training wheels, and then the first, second, and third year you were able to just run a business And so how does it feel now on this side of let's say five to seven years of knowing how you took a leap, not just in hiring me, but a leap for yourself, a financial leap. You took that risk of investing in Kacey and Kacey's understanding of what it meant to run a business. How does it feel seven years out to look back at that? Like, don't you want to go “Well done, girl. Like, way to go!”

Kacey: Absolutely. Yeah, definitely doing a little designer happy dance, like, you go, girl. Absolutely. I think what's most beautiful about it, too, is to feel like that was worth it. I've been affirming that every day since in gratitude of, gosh, I'm so blessed and so lucky to do what I absolutely love and with people I absolutely, genuinely adore. I genuinely believe these people, clients that have been brought into my life and will be part of my life for decades to come. I'm so grateful for those relationships. But the reality is, like, just being able to recognize, okay, you just walked into this, and you're a great designer. I never had a question about that. But when you all of a sudden go, okay, wait, now I own a business. Now I need to, just like you said, I'm wearing all of these hats. I'm wearing the marketing hat and the finance piece and the operations piece and the organization and managing the project and product procurement, etc., you start to go, oh, wow, this is like a lot of different people doing all of these roles that are embodied in me, in one person. That's a lot of pressure. So, when you look at it and you say five, seven years ago, we go, okay, we need to recognize that. How do we reconcile that? How do we make sense of that? Do we hire? Can we hire? What do we need to make to be able to hire someone and help provide for their family as well as provide for my own family?

Michele: Right.

Kacey: I think looking at that now, I mean, I've been involved in a few, like, mentorship scenarios. The first thing I tell people is, you are worth it. And get yourself the education, the information, the help you need, whether it's a coach or whether it's a system of the way you charge or understanding what it is that you need, know what the lack is, know what is missing and fill that and know all day long, that it was worth it. If I could go back in time and go back to 10 years before that, 12 years before that, I wish I knew now, which that's normal.

Michele: Yeah, don't we all wish we. Yeah, I remember us having a conversation. I don't know if you remember this, but you had an intern and you were feeling like you were just a little bit crazy with that intern and about how much it was costing you, because it was a paid internship, but it was costing you. I remember us sitting down and saying, how much are you paying them a week? How many hours are they working? Can you find five things that you can give them to do for five hours’ worth of work that we can charge them out, and now they've paid for themselves? And you were like a light bulb!

Kacey: And I was like why was this not a remote thought? This was so far back. It was so far ago.

Michele: It was so far ago, but I say that Kacey, because that's a building block, right? If I have somebody working for me, whether it's 1099, intern, employee, full time, or whatever it is, how much am I going to pay them and how many hours do I need to have them have billable work, at what rate to cover that? Where is my break-even now? Every other hour that they work on top of that, I'm making money on them. And then the second part was the conversation that we had that went with it was, now what is their job description? Because if the things you're putting on their list are not billable, they don't even have a chance to.

Kacey: They don't have a value.

Michele: They don't even have a value to help you with that. But that was that first lesson that I won't say the first lesson, that was one of the first aha's in this whole grand big thing of hiring that I remember us having that. And you went, that is a game changer. Now I know how to start looking at the people that are hired so that later, when you're hiring, knowing I know what I need you to do, I know how much I'm going to pay you, I know how much work it needs to come in so that I can, to your point, keep you going to support your family. To still support my family. It's just that one piece of a puzzle that starts to fill in that allows you to look for the next piece. We can't even look for the second and third piece if we don't fill in the first.

Kacey: Absolutely. And just driving home the value that they bring to the firm is huge. Is what is what again, recognizing what are the gaps? What am I missing? What are the things that somebody's better at doing than I am, where someone's faster, more efficient, and can get it done? Because I'm limping by the time I've done 12 different tasks in the first hour of the day, by the time I get to 5:00 at night, I'm. I'm like, oh, gosh, I remember this happened for years, that I was like, I need to go in and do designs after work was over. I was like, what is happening? So if I could hire someone to do the things, that was the true operations of the business that is so pivotal in updating the client and keeping track of where things are, where their goods are, what they can expect, what the next line is, in the process really having, a whole understanding of how the process will work from concept to completion. I mean, if there's someone in charge of that, gosh, I can go do all the other things, do all the stuff, really.

Michele: A couple of exercises that we did when we did our big events was what is your queen B role? What is the thing that you love the most doing in your business? And how do we protect that just for you? So, let's not give away what you love to saddle you with all the things that are not your sweet spot. Let's give you what you absolutely love and give them what they love. Hire for the things to your point where they're skilled, where they like it, and where they love it. We can make that like that country song. “I like it. I love it. I want more of it.” We can put them in that country little place, right? To say, I like the numbers, give me more, more. So where in your business growth cycle did you feel like, all right, I'm just going to take that next big risk or another large risk on myself and on somebody to make that first hire and what was the first full-time hire?

Kacey: The first full-time hire was my, Well, she's now. She was sort of an assistant at the beginning, and now she is definitely my operations director. And she's been with me for several years. And I sort of kept having these conversations and kept thinking, oh, and then I would fill something out, and indeed. And then I would get flooded with all of these people, like, oh, my God, I love picking out fabrics. I just want to. And I'm like, okay, I need to figure out exactly what I want. And that's when the job description sort of came into play. And I started really thinking, what are the things that I don't want to do? What is my queen B role? And then what are all the other supporting roles that are pivotal to our success? But I really need to offload that to someone else's task that they can roll in and really shine. And this was a connection of a friend and they worked together in New York City. And, she said, I think you'd really love her. She's awesome. I think you guys would get along great. And we had our sort of first introduction, and it was sort of the same with you. I remember thinking, gosh, I don't know if I'm ready to hire anyone, but I can't not hire her. She's awesome and I think we work well together. The personalities were great. I think she's super motivated. She, she brings all the questions to the table, of what are we doing next? How can we do this better? And, and that is just a great partnership. And like I said, she's been with me for years, and that was the mainstay first choice of, gosh, we need to do this. And I can't even imagine doing things sort of without that role, without her. And subsequently on top of that, later hires as well. I mean, I think it just opened my eyes to. It allowed me to stay in the lane where I am best, and I shine and allowed me to support her in the shining of her too. Which was awesome. It's been a pleasure to see the skill set that she brings to the table. That is not a skill set that I bring to the table in that way. Was it a role that I did for 20-something years? Yes, but it's something that is. I'm happy to have her play those parts, which is amazing.

Michele: Doing a role out of necessity versus out of love is a very different thing. Well, I am inspired when you tell me that you hired somebody who brings everything to the table and says, how can we do it better? How can we do it faster? How can we do it with less mistakes? Or how can we do it in a more exemplary way? Or where are we going next? I love that because sometimes it's easy. And I know you and I've all been there, probably everybody listening, We've all been there where you're just kind at some point when you're so by yourself, it is so easy to almost think, even if it's amazing, I've got to do a whole year by myself, or I've got to do a whole another year lacking resources to help me in some part and parcel of the business and even with the excitement, that feels overwhelming. So, to have somebody who is loving your clients, the process and you enough to come in and say, how do we continue to improve? How do we continue to think forward? That brings a level of excitement and of intrigue and of growth that I think sometimes we might not always push ourselves to do out of pure exhaustion, 100%.

Kacey: And I think just looking back, I cannot say it enough. That would have been something when you actually look at the analysis of the value of hiring someone and it a billable hour, what you pay them and what is charged to the client, their value, their worth is they're working on your client's project and they're cranking it along so that it is moving at a pace that's going to deliver it. So, the client is the happiest. So, it is a win for literally everyone. It's a win for them, it's a win for you as the CEO of your firm and it's a total win for your client and now the partnership that she has, not only with our clients but as well as with our tradespeople. So, it will be we've sent documents of renovation or something to an extent and they'll just contact her and say, we got the calendar, we're doing this, we'll be there for that. We got a question about this. We're going to review that with you. I mean, it is, it's part and parcel to just such a joy. It's a genuine joy for her to love what she does. I love what I do. I love the fact that we both love the fact that the clients get the best result and that makes me thrilled.

Michele: And at the end of the day, that's what it's all about, 100%.

Kacey: And you know what? It's not without sort of recognizing that there are tweaks or things to change or improve upon or say how did that work? If we are the client, what are we thinking about that? How did this work for you guys? What were you thinking about that? What did you think when you got our, know, first invoice or our informational packet or what have you? I think it's always about being humble enough to ask the questions and to learn and to push it for the next level of improvement and excellence.

Michele: I love it. I love it. You've also hired again since then. So, what is your other big hire that you have? Position wise.

Kacey: Position-wise. It became very clear very quickly that the role of the operations director was encompassing the financial aspect of invoicing, and I had hired a 1099 bookkeeper for a period of time after my operations director. It was just there were too many hats that she needed to wear, and she still had young kids. So, I think we'd grown into the fact like, okay, and now we're morphing into much bigger projects, and that are very much all-encompassing. And that became very clear that that role of sort of a smaller bookkeeping job became more evident that financial sort of administrator of all things financial. All questions, anything gets funneled to her to be in charge of, which is amazing. And then the meetings that we have, the meetings that she has with the team to support ordering and the shipping I mean the shipping's a huge, huge headache in and of itself because when you're looking at multiple projects per year, and they are whole house projects, this is a lot to sort of cover and to be in charge of and to be responsible for.

Michele: I love that. So, there's operations, there's financials, and then the design. And what's also great about this Kacey is that you know what you love to do, you love to do the design, and you truly have built a team of people that have come along beside you and filled in those spaces with the parts that they love. For everything to work cohesively, like you said, internally and externally to the client. What other things would you say would be the top things that would help you scale your business? So, I'm assuming hiring would be a big one.

Kacey: Yep, hiring is huge and amazing. And I think also like we have 1099s to a marketing company that was completely pivotal, to outsource the things that we needed to make sure that we were getting involved in the next level of whether it was Instagram, I still have a handle in it. But that was a no-brainer to have a marketing company, to have someone that does our renderings, whatever project. I mean right now we're doing 23 spaces. That's our second. That's our phase two of the same house project. So that's, those are all outsourced. But she, you was just here today and works with us routinely to support us in that way. But it doesn't at this point need to be individual, full-time higher, which has been great. It allows us that flexibility, and we still get the same end result for the client, which is awesome. The other thing I was going to say too, in addition to you hiring a team of people to support you in all those ways is the education. I think it started out with the coach, then it became this, how can I say it the best, whether it was a retreat or it was a seminar that we would go to, or I just went to th, New England Home Design Influencers conference out in Napa. Like just learning and being exposed to all of the other professionals in our design arena. It's amazing. And all the things that we can learn, and just to be humble enough to say, like, gosh, this is amazing, I didn't know anything about this. This is how cool. And that's a great resource. I think the other thing, in terms of the true education of at one point we were sort of a hybrid method. And then it became, you know what? I think these projects are huge. And I'm feeling like some of these invoices are so inconsistent that if I'm a client, how am I feeling about it's $1 value one day, and then it's exponentially more expensive the next month? And then the next month it's different. So how do you plan for that? How do you budget for that? And most of our clients that it's definitely luxury, high end, and those clients want less checks to write and more okay, now you go do what you do. I'm out. And I think that became very clear with some of the projects that we had. So, going to this flat rate was like, okay, now what does that look like? And how can we do that? And what is the easiest, most efficient, best way in a fair marketplace that we are obviously fair to ourselves as the firm and fair to the client? We are also a business though, so we need to be profitable come hell or high water. That is happening. So, it's not by accident, as you know, Michele. So, there you go. That became clear and I think we took a couple classes. We took Kimberly Selden's one of her classes, which was great. And just adding additional resources and reflection for our team to sort of think about what was happening and how better we could serve our clients, and then Sandra Funk’s the standard method was great for us, to just look at the best way to capture things and to turn around. Like, are we even on the same page?

Michele: Right.

Kacey: How can we let this client know right out of the gates? Not only from our discovery call, are we personality-wise going to work well together? Are you going to be able to trust me or are there red Flags flying all over the place.

Michele: Right.

Kacey: You worked with the designer before. What's the story with that? What did that look like? What was your experience then? Gosh, I'd be flattered to be your first designer so that I could really set the bar high for you. Great. Where do we fall? So sometimes if they're not a red flag but then we go yes, but a lot of times they play it close to the vest and don't want to tell you what is the investment level that you'd be willing to allocate towards this project. Sometimes they're not sure what they should share at that point. So, if we are able to do the resourcing of. This is the size of your house. It's based on the complexity of the design, based on the complexity of the build, based on all the resources that we need to outfit this, and based on the luxury high-end goods that you already have that you've said that you want further. This is how we create a metric so that we know what roughly that is going to cost you. Then we know we're in the same stratosphere.

Michele: That's right. This is the range if you want us to do the rest of your house the way it's currently appointed with the same types of things. I think the thing that is so interesting, just a quick segue on flat fees. I've seen them beautifully and I've seen them fall so flat and so horrible. And the truth of the matter is it comes down to a couple of things for an amazing process. So, you've got to have a very tight process, you've got to have an amazing client and then you got to follow it, and you got to hold it tight, and you've got to know which items kick you outside of the process.

Kacey: Absolutely. And the other thing is totally a Michele-friendly statement is you have to know your numbers, you have to know your historical data to know based on this like-minded project based on same goals, same vendors, same size, same trades, same output of wallpaper and custom built-ins and all the things we're going to be doing. Is that translatable right here? Do we have that data? You bet we do. We thousand to know that. Correct. It was like.

Michele: And I think one other thing is interesting especially today, not only historical data but you've got to have your thumb on the pulse of what's happening in the economy because hiring somebody to do something today that we hired three, four years ago the price would be completely different. And so, it is not only having the historical data, which I'm, 1,000%, for. We've got to have it because it informs the future. But then adding on top of that an understanding of tariffs and taxes and shipping and handling and cost per hour for people now with different rates and stuff, knowing that we're building on top of it. I think so often people think that once they've built it, they can just put it on a shelf and go move on to the next thing. But the same way that you're working on your strategic plan, the same way that you work on that flat rate fees, the same way that you're working on the way that you organize data in your firm, just like this awesome teammate that you have that says how do we do it better? How do we improve? Is having that eye on the iterative aspect of we're always learning, we're learning from something. You could take a course from me, a course from Kimberly, a course from Sandra, and then mix them all together to create the outcome that works for your company. You know what I mean? Well, I would say, I won't say nobody. I will say it is rare that anybody thinks that their solution is the one and only solution for everybody's problem. And the person that thinks that's probably deluded because it's just not the way it works. There's always, I can learn pieces from here, pieces from here. And now at the end of the day, the expert on Kacey's business is Kacey. It's not me, and it's not any other educator or coach, or supporter. The expert on your business is you. And so, it's up to each of us to know what we need. I love how you said it. You said, “I need to know what I needed. Where were my blind spots? Where did I not want to do?” And even if I was scared, I had to invest in solutions that served me for the business that I wanted to create.

Kacey: Absolutely. And just being big enough to say, like, gosh, I'm so tired of this not working or being clunky sometimes it's not a big like, oh, this is terrible. It's just like, this just doesn't feel as good as it could feel like when things feel really good.

Michele: Like, surely, there's got to be an easier way to accomplish this.

Kacey: And how do we do that? Like yesterday we had, we had a two-hour meeting, our team to just go over new processes and let's review, let's look at it and. And let's try to streamline some things. Let's see where our gaps are. Let's see where there was a long lag time if we need to tighten that up. Like, we could turn that over sooner or that needs to get to her earlier so she can get those renderings going and we can get them back in time, and then you guys can do your costing and then I can get onto the next floor. So really just recognizing that that constantly requires revision and.

Michele: So much effort. So, Kacey, what is the next big step for your company? Where are you going next? What do you have coming?

Kacey: Where are we going next? Where are we going next? So, we're loving the fact that we've had a few projects that we've traveled outside of New England, which have been very fun. So, traveling to Boulder. We had a great project in Boulder, Sarasota. We've done a couple of their up the coast. That's been really fun in terms of other things in the business, I think. I mean, I'm loving all of the new AI things that are coming out that are showing us that we can really, again, work smarter, not harder. And I think if we can capitalize on that, that we already use that to some extent, but that's really becoming, like, an eye-opening Wow. This is kind of amazing. And I think there'll probably be another hire in the next year or so as well. I think if things are tracking the way they're tracking will require that as well. And we are building our additional office here, so that will be fun. So, lots of good things.

Michele: Wow. It has been so fun to kind of walk down memory lane, and to see you where you were, so low, like, truly so low. And then to see all that you've done and all that you've built and, just to hear how you have invested in yourself and then invested in your teammates, I love that as well because sometimes the education is what they need, not just what you need. I know that you have done that.

Kacey: Yeah. I love the fact that watching them grow and us grow together as a firm is awesome. And I love that and also love the next generation of some of those mentorships and supports that can just be like, gosh, if I could go back in time, I would just give myself a big hug and say, yeah, this is going to be fine. This is totally worth it and do all the things do. So that's really. That's been great to see sort of newbie designers that have come out to that are really enjoying that there's some to learn and things to do and ways to grow and doesn't. You don't need to waste 15 years to figure it out.

Michele: But we also don't have to feel like we've got to get it all done in one year either.

Kacey: Yep. And it doesn't mean it needs to be done yesterday, and it doesn't mean it's going to be perfect. It's going to be an evolution. Much like our homes are our workshop, our businesses are always evolving and always improving. That should always be the goal. Excellence is always eyes on the prize and how can we do better? So that's great. But I will always credit you for all of your love and all of your support and all of your help and education. And you know that that was my first aha moment and it was my best aha moment.

Michele: Oh, thank you. Well, you know I love you dearly. I still think about you, and I watch your sweet family, and I feel like I had that little glimpse into high school and college and first jobs and boyfriends and girlfriends and all the things. Kind of fun to see.

Kacey: Absolutely. And great to see your family growing and changing in all the wonderful ways that life can change. Absolutely

Michele: All the little grandboys right now.

Kacey: I know, I know. I love that one. I'm so happy for you.

Michele: Thank you.

Kacey: This has been wonderful today, so thank you for having me.

Michele: You're welcome. Kacey, tell people where they can find you, where you're hanging out online.

Kacey: Sure. On Instagram. I'm Kacey.Graham is my Instagram handle. And you can find me on Facebook as well. Kacey Graham and Boehm Graham Interior Design.

Michele: Awesome. Well, we will put all that in our show notes. And again, thank you so much for sharing your design journey today.

Kacey: Thank you so much. Absolutely. Great to see you.

Michele: You too. Bye. Bye.

Kacey: Bye.

Michele: Kacey, it was such a pleasure catching up with you and detailing your business journey today. What a great reminder to invest in ourselves. And if we're not willing to do that, we really should stop and ask ourselves why. Maybe you're like Kacey was at the beginning and you know that things could be done easier or maybe, just with less friction. And if you need help with strategy or financials, please reach out. Let us see what that investment might look like for you to give yourself the best path forward. You can learn more by going to Scarletthreadconsulting.com. Choose today to be profitable because profit doesn't happen by accident.

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