290: Self-Care is Profitable for You and Your Business   

Michele: Hello, my name is Michele and you're listening to Profit is a Choice. With us today on the podcast is Katie McDonald. Katie is an amazing self-care strategist who helps get things done without coming undone. She's journeyed through exhaustion and depletion from overdoing and now she's focused on being. She offers wisdom and guidance as many of us as overachievers and doers might be feeling some of the burnout from self-neglect. Listen in and enjoy.

Every day, empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company financial health and enjoying the rewards of reduced stress and more creativity. With my background as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses in the interior design industry, educator and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line, and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to Profit is a Choice. Hey Katie, welcome to the podcast.

Katie McDonald: Thank you for having me.

Michele: You're welcome. I'm laughing because in, kind of our pre conversation, we're already laughing and giggling before we come on. I feel like my heart's already kind of exploding with joy. So that's a good way to start a podcast.

Katie McDonald: Yes.

Michele: So Katie, you and I briefly met at ‘LuAnn Live’ back in what, 2023, I think it was like November of 23, and we connected more thoughtfully in 2024. You've done a masterclass for my clients directly and we've spent a little bit of time together and so I am super excited to have you here today to talk with us all things self-care and time management.

Katie McDonald: Well, I'm happy to be here. I love your work and am happy to support it.

Michele: Awesome. So, Katie, before we get started and kind of talk about, you know, taking care of ourselves and you know, the signature talk you did for us was putting the ‘me’ back in time management. So really being thoughtful towards ourselves. But before we can do that. There was a time in your life that you weren't so thoughtful towards Katie. I mean, I know there was a time when I wasn't so thoughtful towards Michele, that's what I was telling you that we were laughing about. But you weren't either, right? There was a time that, let's say, your focus was a bit more external than internal. So, I would love to hear and our listeners just a little bit of your journey, of what put you in the position to do the work that you do today, so they'll understand, you know, what's driving you and what has been guiding you to be able to have the conversations that we're having.

Katie McDonald: Well, I think it's fair to start with my addiction to doing. I was a human doing, not a human being. I resented my physical needs. They were nuisances, they were annoyances, and they were what I perceived as obstacles to an otherwise productive day. My entire identity was defined by what I accomplished in that day. And it really wasn't to prove to anybody else; it was this inner drive to reassure myself that I was okay, that I deserved a place in the earth, and that meant I had to earn it. Every single day I woke up as if I had a blank slate, like it was “Groundhog Day”, and every day I had to prove that I had a right to be there, and it led to compulsive working. Just like I said, I didn't want to drink water because I didn't want to have to stop and pee. I didn't want to eat lunch, because it just felt like an indulgence. And, you know, I didn't understand that I needed my body to function. I was young enough to get away with it, as many people think we are. I thought, oh, well, you know, I can do this. It's like we pull all-nighters in college and think we can keep doing it, and I had to hit a wall. And I hit a wall. I was working for Time magazine. I sold advertising in 45 national publications, including Architectural Digest and Elle Decor and Business Week in Forbes. And I couldn't do it. I missed one meeting, and that's when I knew, it's over. I can't pull this off anymore. I can't not sleep, not eat well, live on sugar just to fuel my inhumane expectations of myself. I can't keep doing this. I had to reach the basement of rock bottom, which for me was having suicidal thoughts. I was like, I don't know how to not live like this. And so, the only option that I saw in my despair was not living at all. I couldn't figure out how to do that. Like, I’m grossed out by blood, I was afraid I was going to be a vegetable. Like, I couldn't figure out ‘the how’, thank God. I have an incredible husband now of 35 years. Who saw how desperate I was and, and how much pain I was, and I was able to, really, I quit my career and, and had to make my job recovering, and I cured myself within six months. After having lots of bumps along the way, having a child, and the perfectionism haunted me there too, but I cured myself within six months. And I vowed that because I implemented everything, had always studied, I was now going to go back to my tribe of doers. I was going to teach them how to be. And that's where bnourished came from 15 years ago.

Michele: I'm curious. So many things that you said, certainly strike a chord for me. And we've shared that. Like, I'm a doer. And it's interesting, I've always been an achiever. When I even did strengths finder, it's like my number two is strengths. And the sad one, the first one I say sad, it's really not, but meaning, you know, there's a good and a bad to every strength that we have. The bad part is the one that's ahead of it is maximizer, which means I'm always trying to make it better. So, then you've got this, this circuit, of achieve, maximize, achieve, maximize, achieve, maximize. It's like, when is it done? Can you say enough?

Katie McDonald: That was it. Like, I just said, I can't keep doing this. Like, I cannot do this.

Michele: The other thing that I noticed and that I was curious about, where you were talking about it almost as “Groundhog Day” experience. So, for me, I remember going through a time where, like you, I was like, oh, if I can limit my water intake, I can limit my breaks. And, not because I was trying to but mine was really where I was just trying to get things done for the day. There were just things that I enjoyed doing and just wanted to do, and I felt great. I laugh about it on here all the time. I love using Asana and putting everything on the list so I can mark it off. It definitely made me feel accomplished for that day. But I'm curious about where you made the comment for you, and I wonder if this was like something that you came to understand later versus did you understand it in the moment, where you said, and if I say it wrong, fix it for me, but you made a comment something along the lines of I woke up every day trying to prove that I had a right to be in the space or in the world. Like, your worth. Because sometimes I think they're so tied, and we don’t recognize it and sometimes I think they are so deeply tied that we are so fully cognizant of every day I'm waking up asking do I deserve to be here? And I asked because mine wasn't, I didn't have that level of depth at the time. Mine was just that I had been raised to get stuff done and I just got stuff done. I had been raised to be the best at what I put my mind to, to give it 110% and to not slack off and to be a good worker. And that's just the way.

Katie McDonald: Yeah, proving yourself. I mean for me it was absolutely proving that I was enough to myself. I don't even think I was aware of any depression at that point. It was drive and what's fascinating is that when I started my business, I realized this is about self-care strategies. The perception of self-care is that it's fluff. And I've literally had people say that, oh well, you're in the fluff business. And it's fascinating to me that that's how we frame it because we're not talking about bubble baths, we're talking about, and there is a time when bubble bath is the definition, but we're talking about meeting our needs. That having such deep respect and understanding for who we are, what makes us uniquely ‘us’ and what is it that we need, and then honoring that need even when it inconveniences someone else, even when it inconveniences us. So, when we slow down and just say, what do I need? And that answer might be, wow, I need to go to bed early. The toddler in us is going to have a full-on tantrum. No, I don't like, no, no, I don't want to go to bed. I've got things to do. And we think that they're in competition. We're either taking care of ourselves or we're taking care of business. And my work is about saying, “Look, because you want to take care of business, I'll never take the doing away from you ever”. Like that is, that's like taking oxygen out of the lives of high achievers. I won't do that. These are my people. I will not do that. I don't do that to myself. But what we need to do is then say in order to do this, I need to take exceptional care of myself. Yes. And that's the piece that's not, that's not there. We tell ourselves, I'll do it at the end of, you know, when I reach this mark at my retirement funds or I make that sale or I get that job, whatever, you know, all these win this, win that never now and then, we often have. Like, I did have to have a physical crisis where I had ulcerative colitis, pneumonia, shingles, asthma, allergies, anxiety, depression, obesity. My body physically fell apart. It gave whispers that I ignored, and then they became roars. And that's what was required for me to wake up. And that’s what my work is about. I want to get to people before they have to reach that level that I had to reach to get my own attention about myself.

Michele: Yeah. So. And the reason I asked that question is because most of the people that are listening to this podcast own a company. So, we're doers by nature. And I would almost venture to say all of us were made to be doers because we find purpose in some amount of doing is when the doing outweighs the other. And for me, what was also interesting was I didn't think mine was a worth problem or worth challenge until later when I looked back.

Katie McDonald: When you're in it, you don't see it.

Michele Williams: When you're in it, you don't see it. I would never have put all of it together, it wasn't until later. And like you, I was moving and achieving and doing honestly. I was having things happen around me that were propelling me forward in the best possible ways, ways that I couldn't have even. People were like, what are you going to do next? And I'm like, I don't know. I’ve already reached all my goals for five years out, so I've got to reset some new stuff. I got to do something different. It was just all happening so great until it wasn't. And like, you, you know, I believe that we are body, mind, spirit, soul. Like, there's so many pieces and parts of us. Right. And even now, on the other side of all of mine, 13, 14 years ago. So, in 2012, I think the listeners know if they listen to my podcast Origin Story or the Scarlet Thread Origin Story, mine broke down. I had bypass surgery. I lost blood flow to my right arm, type 1 diabetes, hypothyroid allergies, asthma, like the whole thing, like a systemic storm. And I ended up having to sell a company, stop a company. I ended up starting a new company. But when we're talking about shutdown, I mean, I was in DKA, Diabetic ketoacidosis. Like, I was in trouble. Like, it was. It's a miracle that I'm still here with all the things that happened. You just don't lose blood flow to your right arm, and have to have an artery so you can keep your dominant hand. Like, that's just not a day to occurrence that most people have. And I had heard whispers all along the way, just like you. Right? The same thing that I'm trying to save everybody from, but by saying, let's build a strategy that gives you space to go do all the things that Katie's teaching you to do. Because if we don't think of ourselves as mind, body, spirit, soul, and how these things work together for the greater good, then we can just chase our mind, which is what I was doing, or chasing my desires and plans for how to build without hearing the whispers. You know, we shouldn't have to get to the roar. And the reason I'm spending a couple extra minutes on this is I know that sometimes, at least in my sphere, people here and they're like, yeah, yeah, that's for other people, but, man, I'm good, I'm good. I'm doing okay. Until they're not and they're exhausted and then hit the call that I get isn't, I'm physically breaking down as much as this whole business that I built. I'm sick, I'm tired. I'm going to shut it down. I'm done. I'm pissed off at everybody. I don't like my clients. I don't like my vendors. I'm not happy anymore. Like, I'm hearing that piece of it where you're hearing probably a little bit more of the personal side. I hear the personal, but it comes framed as everybody around me is trying to do me bad, do me wrong, or it's all falling apart, even when I'm giving it more than I have to give. And then all these other things are cascading.

Katie McDonald: Right. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because we're talking about doers, and doers are our people. Right, and the funny thing is every single book on my nightstand was about meditation. Every single book was about nutrition, alternative wellness. I mean, I'm a hippie at heart. absolutely everything. Essential oils, all of that. That's everything that whenever I read, and I would, I'd read, I'd skim more. But I actually did, when I'd allow myself some time, I would read, and this was my topic. These were my passions, but I implemented none. I was bringing essential oils to my clients. If my clients were stressed out, I was making an essential oil concoction and bringing it to them and servicing them and taking care of them in that way, but never really applied it to myself. So, if we're doers like we just need to do for ourselves. Right. We need to implement our own self-care strategies. The same practices that we put into our business are often the ones that we need to. And the most basic is actually spending time with ourselves in quiet, getting to know ourselves, being curious about ourselves. Much like you walk your clients through going through spending time working on their business, not just in their business. I'm asking you to work on yourself by being in your own company, learning how to tolerate sitting still with a cup of tea, a cup of coffee, doing nothing and being just in your own company. And that's how you start caring about yourself when you actually have a sense that there is a self. There is something that is pushing all of this forward and, and it's you. And you deserve the attention and intention as well.

Michele: Yeah. What's so interesting about that as an activity too, Katie, is it seems so simple. Right.

Katie McDonald: And yet it's the homework. All my clients always blow off.

Michele: Oh my gosh. It is the hardest. Especially when you have, I'm going to say when speaking from myself, so I won't out anybody out, out myself. But coming from a place of turning off all of that so that I could keep performing or doing, turning it back onto here, it almost feels like it either goes stone silent, or it feels like I'm being screamed at and having to work my way through that. I can remember all of a sudden going, oh, that's what that feels like. Like feelings that I didn't even know how to feel because  I had a therapist that said to me one time, she said, Michele, she said here's what's interesting. You can't selectively numb your feelings. When you numb them, you numb them all across the board. So, you can't numb anger or hurt without numbing excitement and joy.

Katie McDonald: And doing numbs.

Michele Williams: That's right. That's why part of like when you go through grief for things we just throw ourselves into doing. And so, what I had done, not intentionally of course, even with good intention to your point.

Katie McDonald: Self-preservation.

Michele: That's right. And then all of a sudden what got me here wasn't going to get me to the next point. But when I had to start because I kept saying I need to get something. Here was my tell. I kept saying to everybody that would hear me, I need to stop the noise. I need to get somewhere where I can think. I can't think. I can't think. And so finally, when I got to a place that I could stop everything, have that cup of tea that you talk about, and I used to always have tea with my boys when they came home from school. They still talk about the tea parties that I would set up for them. because I love making the tea, the whole ritual. I had a friend who made teas and brought them over so you'd have, like, roses in there. Oh, it's just beautiful. It's aromatic, like you said, it's the whole process, all the things. And I would love to do that. But when I could finally learn to stop and sit down and hear myself think and take a breath, like really breathe, I was breathing from here up. Everybody kept telling me you’re not breathing. I'm like I’m alive. I don’t know what you’re talking about, but all those things that we just don’t know, we don’t get it until you have to get it.

Katie McDonald: Yeah. Yeah. And what I hear a lot, I work with a lot of interior designers, as you know, and what they’re saying is, I’ve built all this, and I don't like it anymore. Like, I'm trading my relationships, I'm trading joy and happiness and all this stuff for fluffing pillows. Now, of course, we know it's so much more than that, but that's how it seems. Like I'm trading my life energy for a throw pillow. And that despair, like, I just can't do this anymore. What's it all for? I worked so hard and the climb of getting to the top and then being at the top and being like, I don't like this. I actually built a house that has no room for me. I built a company that is not where I want to be. Much like when an interior designer goes into a space, empties it all out, we need to empty it all out. Our bloated schedules? Empty it all out. Clean out a closet, empty it all out. And then curate intentionally one thing after another, choose what you let back in. Do it with gratitude and clarity instead of resentment or people pleasing or an inability to say no to anybody else but yourself.

Michele: So, you and I both talked, we are in the same age range, 25 times a couple. And so, my question for you is, is this something that you also think that we have, I'm going to say, a deeper understanding, not better, but deeper understanding as we age versus when we're 25 and 30. Because I remember at, ah, 25 and 30 and 35, even into 40, the energy level that I had was so different. Like you said that we can do this because we can get away with it. The body can bounce back faster. But that recovery, I remember my husband hurt himself one time in. When he was in his 40s, he went to the doctor, he strained his back or something, and he was like, oh, you're trying to be a weekend warrior. He's like, you're over 40 now. No weekend warrior. You’ve got to limit what you do. You've got to readjust what your body can physically do to not set you up for a bad next week. Age certainly gives us a perspective, because I wouldn't have had that from the other direction, which is why I love your work, that you're trying to tell some of these. We don't want them to wait to get where we were.

Katie McDonald: But the majority of my clients are approaching 40. I just don't think you can see it yet. And, I would say the majority of my clients have children who are a little older. I, of course, have some exceptions, but really, they just hit. That's where they hit the wall. That's when the body starts saying, “This isn't sustainable. We can't keep doing that”. This voice that's been silenced for so long, buried under busyness, is saying, like, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, I. I don't want to do this. This is not the life that I wanted for myself. And even when you get to the top of the mountain or when you're still climbing up, it's like we just need to pause. And. And I like the concept of pause. I like the visual of a pause button that has two lines. One line is our present self. The other line I see as our future self. And if we could just pause and consult our future self. Be like, hey, how is this in service to the future self? Because our future self could be five minutes from now. It could be five years from now. But everything we do is either a deposit or a withdrawal on our future self. And I just this week turned 59, and I'm grateful that I got here because they're, you know, at that stage at the origin story of bnourished I didn't think I was going to get there and really was told I wasn't going to get there. So, at this point I think, you know, we have to have some life experience to understand that we're not invincible. Right. Because that's part of when we're so young, we feel invincible. We don't feel the consequences of our choices as quickly as we do as we get older. And I think it does take a level of wisdom to just to pause and take a moment and be like, wow, is this really what I want out of my life? And can I do this? Are the things that matter most to me getting the attention? And what I see is my clients are all high achievers, mostly in the interior design industry, and design industry in general. And what they're saying is like they're badass at their work. They are incredible, you know, they are fierce at their work but they're half assing the things that are most important to them. And that misalignment starts. That's the awakening when they no longer feel aligned, that's the opportunity to go in.

Michele: It's kind of that idea of like, like using that same analogy, we're climbing up this big mountain and then we get to the top and we realize I don't even like the view or I love the view, but my gosh, are you telling me I got to climb this mountain over and over and over. Is it worth all the climbs? You know, I can remember my son said to me one time, he was young, he was probably late middle school, and he saw me just going, going. I mean that was when I was in my grind era. And he was like mom, can I ask you a question? And I said yeah. He said how do you know when enough is enough?

Katie McDonald: What an old soul!

Michele Williams: And I was like dang, yes, seriously. And what he was asking was, you know, of course that makes sense. But at the same time, he was asking just from a kid to an adult, like when you've set a goal, when you've reached the goal, when do you stop and celebrate the goal and just be for a little bit versus as an achiever, the minute you achieve, you're off to the next achievement. Kind of celebrating like the where you are, right? And he taught me a lot with the question.

Katie McDonald: You made a good point though. The next generation is watching us, right? Especially women. The next generation is watching us for how to lead. They're watching us for how to be a parent, how to be a partner and you know, often we're not great role models. If we're neglecting ourselves, then we're neglecting our duty to lead the next generation to role model. So, when we're martyrs and not role models, we're actually undermining our very purpose, I think of being here, right, to be the most evolved version of ourselves and to serve as mentors for the next generation. And I want to be in a world that is led by people who are nourished. I think most the suffering in today's world is because of self-neglect and lack of self-parenting. We're toddlers running around with, you know, access to nuclear codes and you know, I mean, not getting political but like all of it. The people that are in charge. I don't really, I don't think one of the highest held values, which I think should be, is how do they take care of themselves, you know. It’s not that.

Michele: And I think that's true for the country as a whole. Right. Because you were talking about, you know, certainly being a role model for women. But I raised two sons and I'm over here thinking they're both now married. What am I showing them for what it looks like to be a wife and a mom? And have I given them unrealistic or realistic expectations of that role and position within their family? Because when I think about it, you know, sure, my kids knew what it looked like for a mom who had goals and desires and wanted to do things. They also knew what it looked like for a mom to be at their school or to do math in the front yard. I tried so hard, but at the expense of myself. But they didn't see all of that. We hide a lot of those things from them. They don't know what that took. And now that they both have families, we started having conversations because both of their wives have careers and advanced degrees and they have things and goals for their lives and for their lives together. And we're having a lot of these conversations of what did you and dad do when this happened? How did you do all of this? How did you do all of that? And we started talking about tradeoffs. But I think coming out of kind of our age range, Katie, coming out of where our parents were, kind of the more stay at home women just starting to go into college and starting to work. We came into that I can, you know, have it all at one time kind of mentality. And I think the younger men and women coming behind us are going, we don't want that. Like you guys are burned out, you're irritated, you're frustrated. You're jaded. Like you said. You’re a martyr, we don't want that. We want experience, we want to live, we want to feel, we want to enjoy, and we want, we just don't need all of the doing that you did. Like that doing is you're chasing something that doesn't ultimately fulfill in that process.

Katie McDonald: Yes and we're talking about people who lead the country, people who lead families, but we're also talking about people who lead their businesses.

Michele Williams: Absolutely. We are talking about us.

Katie McDonald: Yes. And I think, you know, particularly in a high-end concierge industry such as interior design, these are you know it's really easy to have client and service be interpreted and experienced as client servitude. And it's really important that we understand we are teaching people how to treat us. And it starts in our family, it starts with ourselves, it starts in our workplace, it continues with our clients. And so, if we need to renegotiate, we can do it. It doesn't matter what we've done up to this point. Any moment we can pause, consult our future self and say is the model that I've built sustainable? Do I want to continue this? If the answer is no, you can change it right now. Right now, you can change it and say I'm going to insert maybe for the first time or re-insert the me ‘m-e’ in time. T I ‘me’. I'm going to manage myself skillfully and with intention and compassion. And as a result, I'm going to utilize my time effectively and intentionally. And so, this is an important piece that we need to remember. No matter what we've done up to this point, we can renegotiate at any point with whatever awakening we've had.

Michele: So, share with us. First of all, I know some of the people that you've worked with and they're very much like the listeners. If we have this understanding and we are starting to realize I can turn my mind off, I can have some self-care, I can sit down with a cup of tea and think and certainly we might do a lot of that before we ever start our workday. But even within the workday some of the self-care habits are going to show up that pausing to listen, pausing to check in. I always think about when they were talking about a cemetery plot that they have the date of your birth and the date that you died, and the dash is like the life that you lived. And there's even a space between the two lines on the pause. So not just checking in with future self, also current self. Right. What does current self-need? And so, we're doing that as leaders. We're teaching our teams how to do that, how to be in service and not servitude. I love that, example. We know when somebody's putting us in forced servitude. We don't like it, yet we put ourselves in servitude.

Katie McDonald: But we created it.

Michele Williams: That's right. We created it. So, when we are having, let's say that we're new to this or even that we're not, but that we found that, oh my gosh, we need to do an internal reset as a business. How do you assist or how do you. I don't want to use the word instruct because you're not telling them what to do. How do you guide?

Katie McDonald: Sometimes I am, I’m up in their grill.

Michele: Same, same. You know, they're consultative and coaching, but how do you suggest to them that they kind of realign the team around them and say, hey, wait a minute, because I'm a fan of honesty. You know what? We've gotten some really bad habits that aren't serving us and who the business wants to be, therefore who we want to be. We're getting ready to have a reset. How do you suggest that they kind of attack that once they've realized all this?

Katie McDonald: Yeah, I mean, I'm really focused on the individual that comes to see me. It is in service to the business, it is in service to the clients, to their family and to their friends. Like, it so clearly impacts all of that. But often working with me is the first time they've ever thought about themselves as a whole. And so, the first thing is really to get clear about like, okay, this is who I want to be, this is what I need. And I'm going to build my business and my day, my habits around this. This is the person I want to be, and this is what that person needs in order to thrive. And so sometimes, my clients will go and they'll talk to their employees and say, hey, I've hired a coach. I've got a business coach, I've got a financial coach, I've got all these things, but I've actually got a coach so that I can practice exceptional well-being habits, and time management habits that you. So, you're going to see a lot of changes around here, and it's going to come from me. And these are some of the things that I'm going to start doing. Sometimes it's, it's through action and people start noticing. So, it might. I had one client who had an open door policy, and I was like, no, no, that was, she was like, that's what a good leader would be. No, that isn't, that's, that's a leader who's going to be distracted and not empower their team. So, we actually had her install shade and her door because it was glass. We had some people. I've had to have actual doors installed. So, we get kind of tactical. But does the space support? And the other thing is I'll be like, one day a week or one afternoon a week, I want you out. I want you cultivating the passion that you had for this work. Go into nature, be inspired, go to a museum, go anywhere that you can have these kinds of sensory experiences. Because so many of them are depleted. They can't access their creativity. They're only going for their cranium and not their creativity. And so, we really need to waken that up. People in the organization are already starting to see changes and they might say the homework assignment might be, you know, you're leaving at 6:00 tonight, like non-negotiable and you communicate to your assistant, nobody schedules, blah, blah, blah, you're scheduling lunchtime. Like there are things that are happening, and everybody already knows there's a new sheriff in town, immediately they can see these changes. Because my clients are really good, they're really good at implementing because they know how to implement in their business. I give them permission, that they already had, to actually implement these strategies and accountability, into their schedule.

Michele: So ready for it. I mean they.

Katie McDonald: So ready.

Michele: By the time they come, they're like.

Katie McDonald: Done with the way you've gotten to me. You are ready and you're ready to roll up your sleeves. And I will only work with somebody that is going to care as much as I do, and I care a lot. So, there is a readiness, there's an eagerness, there's a determination, and there's a commitment and accountability. But the other piece is that there's an immediate awakening the minute they start implementing it. What I ask them to do is just observe, just observe yourself. I'm not saying what I'm asking you to do is, is going to be a habit that you're going to have for a lifetime. You're the decision maker here. Right? You are in charge. But what we're doing is experimenting. So, we're going to experiment. What happens when you leave at 6:00? What happens when you no longer work on the weekends? How does that impact the focus that you have during the workday? Or when you have a lunch date or you go for a walk, or you don't show up in the office us until 11:00 because you've utilized those morning hours in lots of different ways that protect your visionary work that only you as the owner can do. And you've also gotten your workout in which is also an investment in you as work. I mean everything that we do. To think that our work life doesn't impact our home life and vice versa is absurd. We are whole human beings and when we bring our whole selves, we have boundaries in place and deep respect for the responsibilities of being a human being. To answer your question, sometimes there's an announcement like, hey, there's some things that are going to happen. Usually what happens is those things get implemented right away and everybody notices, and everybody elevates. When we step back from the micromanaging that is so inherent in this industry, when we step back, others step up.

Michele: Right.

Katie McDonald: And all of a sudden, all the time that we're diverting to micromanaging can actually be done for the real work. Because we've now liberated and empowered our team to step up and do the work that they need to do and they were capable of, or we wouldn't hire them in the first place.

Michele: That's right. And rarely will somebody ask to do a job that somebody else is already doing. So, if we're already doing the job, they're not going to come up and say can I have that? But they will fill an open position.

Katie McDonald: That's right. We suck at ah, like delegating. It's just, it's a control freak thing.

Michele: Control thing. Yeah, yeah. And it's a branding and you know their name and all of that. But when they realized that it could be a larger impact if you take a step back. You know what's also interesting? And you come at it like you said, from the whole person, I'm looking at the business, I can remember, I think it is about two years ago. I do a strategic planning event in September, and I asked everybody before we plan the business because we're here to plan a strategy to get you through. I said, I want to know what your life plan is. And they're all like, what do you mean? I'm like, okay, for this next one year, where are you taking a vacation? Where do you need time off? Where are you going to put your doctor's appointments? You know, what do you consider a balanced life? Where are you working out? What days are you going home early? And they just were like, whoa, wait, what? And my comment to them was, our businesses that we love will take up every space, every crumb of space. It will find space and it will take it up. So, if you don't put the boundaries up first, it will take over. So put in what you want and then let's fill in the rest. Be honest with me. How much are you going to work? How many weeks do you want off? But I see a lot of on the business side planning to work for 52 weeks, but knowing they're taking four weeks of vacation, well, that just sets you up, right? We're setting ourselves up on this side. So, I think a lot of this and the honesty and the integrity of what we really want, shutting down what we should do or could do and saying, what do I want to do? What is really going to, to meet my needs today and tomorrow for who I am and who I am becoming. Right? And when we do that, then we can create family space and workspace so that we can move through all of those to become this well rounded person.

Katie McDonald: Well, I think our capability can't be the criteria for what we say yes to. And this is what my clients said. I only work with high achievers and I'm only interested in that. It's the people I understand and it's the people that need an intervention. Because a lot of times this is coming from passion, and passion is so legitimate, right? I mean we want, we want to support passion, but it's also coming from an incredible ability to do a lot of things and we're really good at it. And therefore, why not do it? It's just easier, right? We can swoop in, get it done, get it done the right way. but it really, that we have to, we can't let that be, be our determining factor for what makes up our day. We're screwed at that point. So, we have to come up with another way, another tool for determining what it is that we can, we are going to do. And it's the work that only we can do. And then educating and setting up the systems through work with you, Michele, of making sure that those systems are in place where our standards are being executed throughout, at every level. So that’s what we call in the Eisenhower matrix, right? Quadrant two work. Its urgent, its important but not urgent. But it is the systems in place that liberate us, right? The skills that we get, the talents and the systems in place that liberate us to do the work that only we as owners can do.

Michele: Thats right. So, when we come up with these, we can call them habits, we can call them, you know, daily motivations, whatever it is that we are implementing into our lives so that we can start to do this work, they are different right? We're choosing some different paths perhaps or we're choosing different ways of showing up and doing things. How do we put those into practice and how do we make sure that they're staying effective? Because at some point they may not serve us either and we may need something else. How do we ``be I don't want to say maybe it is habit stack or how do we have it form and then also having that check in with ourselves. Is this still serving me?

Katie McDonald: Yes. No, those are great questions. I look at it in a 90 day window. In fact as you know I developed the bnourished methodology for time management in the form of a planner. And the reason I did that is because every 90 days gives us an opportunity to recalibrate. and then every day we want an opportunity. Every week, every month ,we want an opportunity to check in with ourselves. So, the planner and any tool that you want to use. We want to have opportunities at the start of the day. What's the reflection? Right? Or the start of the day is the strategy and at the end of the day is a reflection and at the end of the week, it's let's reflect on the week and then let's strategize the next week and do the same for the month and the quarter. So, when I'm introducing a new habit for a client, I'll do it in a couple of ways. I meet with my clients every two weeks. So, I'll say for next two weeks this is your homework, these are your homework assignments, you know, and these are habits that I want them to experiment with. I want you to experiment with going to bed. What happens when you go to bed at 9 o'clock? What happens when you get off social media for two weeks? When you stop drinking alcohol for two weeks? When you add leafy greens to every single meal of your day? I mean I go places that coaches don't go. I'm in your lingerie drawer, your medicine cabinet, your refrigerator, your calendar, like your closet. I am everywhere because I want to look for levers that I can pull, and I have an abundant toolkit. But I'm going to give you a lot of homework and then your job is to implement this homework and you're doing it just in a two week window knowing that this isn't your forever, this is now. We're just challenging some of the habits you have in place so that we can decide which ones are going to work better for you. And at the end of two weeks, it's amazing the clarity within a two week window. The first week it's so easy. The second week they get a little wobbly, but all the while they have access to me, but they're also learning about themselves. Like oh, wow, I went to bed at this time, and I found I woke up and I actually wanted to go for a walk. And it was like we didn't even talk about a walk but all of a sudden, they're doing it because they're rested. So, we want to feel good. And the habits, the minute we start disrupting the habits, it opens up time and it opens up this, these possibilities that didn't feel like existed before. And so automatically you start feeling good. I do believe when there's a habit that you're really struggling with, you know that for instance, I have a long standing meditation practice of about 20 years and, and I sit for 20 minutes a day. And there have been periods where that's hard for me. Even though it's like, it's like breathing for me. It's really important. The difference of a day when I've meditated and a day that I haven't it's dramatically different. I've studied it, I've experimented with it, I don't need to study it anymore. I know I prefer the version of me that has sat still and yet I was struggling with it for a time. So, my green tea is a habit that is non-negotiable for me. Like that is part of my day. I want my green tea. It’s really important to me. So, I simply say the minute you meditate, you can actually bring your green tea into meditation. Like, but you can have your green tea either during or after your meditation. And it’s habit stacking. But I knew that the green tea was going to happen. So, I just pick a habit that’s a little shaky, a little wobbly, but I really want to commit to for two weeks and then I just pair it up there and all of a sudden, you know, we have the wisdom. It resides in places we don't go which is that quiet. But the minute we start doing it it’s like oh, I like this. Like, oh, I want this. I want more of that. I went to a yoga class on Saturday. I hadn't been for a few weeks, and I was like, I love this because I just interrupted not going with going and immediately felt the relief. Oh, like oh, there you are Katie. This is who you are. This is what's important to you. So, when we slow our roll and we have systems in place that allow us to check in with ourselves, like I actually say what worked and what didn't work. That takes out the judgment. What works and what didn't work just removes the judgment. We have to allow ourselves to change without beating ourselves up for the minute that we make change or the minute we make progress. I walked for 15 minutes. Well, it should have been an hour then we don't do anything. Celebrate any progress, celebrate any learning as growth opportunity and then you'll show up for more growth opportunities.

Michele: Yeah. One of the things that I thought about when we talked last week in the masterclass and then this week was the word curiosity. Right. So, we're so used to quieting ourselves and our needs so that we can focus on others and do and all of that, that giving ourselves permission to turn around to even ask ourselves what do you want? What do you need? How do you need it? That curiosity I think I shared with you right before we came on, just one that came out from even just the masterclass with you last week was that I needed to go work out because I knew that my body needed that as a diabetic. It's just something that we need. And I had another conflicting desire for something else that I wanted to do which was Netflix and watch TV and sit down on rest because I was tired. But I was asking myself kind of that future self-question that you mentioned earlier and I remember, and I told you, I stopped, and I asked myself, Michele, what is the best way for you to show up for yourself right now? You could do both and one's not necessarily better than the other, but how could you best show up for Michele right now? And without hesitation, I answered myself with, you need to go down and work out, even if it's for 20 minutes. That is the best way to show it for yourself right now. And then it was like a switch went off in my mind. It wasn't even like, oh, but I really want to sit and watch Netflix. I mean, when I answered that question, the clarity was such, Katie, I didn't even want to go to do Netflix at that point. Like, it was weird. It was a weird shift from me. Stop and ask that.

Katie McDonald: We want to be asked. Our body and mind are like, please ask. That's why it creates disease and dis-ease. We need to repair the relationship we have with ourselves. It's a relationship that will outlast others till death do us part. And yet it's the one that we treat the worst, we neglect the most. So, we can interrupt that right now. We can simply decide, I'm gonna ask what do I need? And it's the hardest question. It's written into the planner. My clients walk through the planner every day. And that's tough because we're not used to asking. We're used to asking, what do I need to do? But not what do I need? And have that be enough to ask. But once you start asking repeatedly, it comes. And you're not always going to like the answer, as I said and you might not have liked the answer at the time but done. There's no more debate. There's no we to shut down the debate. We have to just shut down the debate. Quiet the noise and simply let the wisdom rise. And that wisdom will guide us every time. And let's say we misheard it or. But it's okay that we get another chance, but let's study ourselves enough to say, okay, we tried. That didn't work. Let's try this. And we adapt.

Michele: Yeah. And the beautiful thing is sometimes it's not the task; it's the timing. Right. It's, like, again, as a diabetic, I have to be careful what I do and when I do it based on how much insulin I've had or how much food I've had or what my carb sensitivity is like. There's like a mathematical equation to every moment of my life, and I'm constantly doing it so good thing I like math because I am constantly doing it. You know, not even kidding. How much does anything raise or lower my blood sugar so that I can stay within healthy ranges and keep myself upright? It’s a constant conversation, but I have got to say, just being able to stop and ask myself the question is almost like I like myself, you know. I mean, certainly there are places where we all want to shift or change or grow or whatever but even learning to be quiet. And I almost feel like in the doing, doing, doing when I got so called up into that I didn't like myself because I didn't like the demands that my mind and my body were asking. Like you said, they were intrusion upon the work that I'm trying to do that matters. Stop it. And what I'm also realizing, Katie, and I'm curious to see if the others you've worked with have done this. But my last three years of really asking myself, what do I want? What do I need? How do I want to show up? What kind of person do I now want to be? What does my next phase of life look like? Like, really internally curious listening. Number one, it made me like myself more. But number two, it's made me know myself more. Then it allowed me to like myself more and to hear myself more. But it's also made me realize I want to do less. Like my doing, but I don't feel as compelled. Not that I don't mind doing. I still love to do, and I still love to achieve. But the feeling that I had to do at a certain level. I had a coach one time, probably eight, nine years ago, ask me, Michele, what if you lowered the bar? And I'm like, what do you mean, lowered the bar? She's like, what if you lowered the bar? And I said, I don't even know what you're talking. Like, what does that mean?

Katie McDonald: It means mediocrity in your mind, right?

Michele: In my mind. You're asking me to go, yeah, mediocre. And she said, Michele, most people cannot even take all that you're doing and giving. Like you're giving more. It's past overflowing the cup. You're drowning because you're giving so much. They can't bring it all in. What if you backed it down to what other people could absorb with slight overflow and then maybe had a secondary, like, she helped me put things back in place. I was just pouring, pouring, pouring, pouring for other people. But it was at my own exhaustion and more than they could even honestly benefit from. So, there was this weirdness of give, give, give, give, give, and people were like, whoa, I can't even. It's like, if they were to drop off all this food at my house, and I'm like, I don't have a freezer, and I can't even eat at all. Like, I appreciate the gift, but it's going to spoil because I can't use all this. And so even finding that has helped me kind of reset my relationship with the doing.

Katie McDonald: Yeah.

Michele: Have you seen this with your other clients.

Katie McDonald: Oh, yeah, no question. I mean, what they discover when they slow down is how exhausted they are.

Michele: Yeah.

Katie McDonald: I mean, they really don't understand. And that's why the body acts up in symptoms and chronic conditions and illnesses are teachers. Right. And, and so our body will start creating disease, and dis-ease in our mind create disease, so that, you know, we pay attention. It's a way to take the elevator down from. We live neck up, but it's a way to take the elevator down and to be able to actually inhabit our body. And that's why I like activities that connect us with our senses. You know, anything that connects us with our senses reminds us of our humanness. So, yes, the first thing they discover is the sheer exhaustion that was underneath it. And then also how much of their life they were doing things they didn't want to do because they were corseted by shoulds. I have so many owners that I work with. They're like, oh, well, I don't want my staff to think that I'm not working hard. Like, they need to see I need to be the first one in the office because they need to know how hard I'm working. So, there's this performative element. These theatrics that are exhausting. And I said, “You can't be a good girl and be good to yourself”. And if you are driven, and so many of us are driven by trying to be a good girl and racing around to try to be liked, and not once asking ourselves whether we actually like ourselves, not once just slowing down to be like, what is this about? Am I even good to myself? We need to interrupt this narrative and Take our power back.

Michele: I think, too, when we do it, like you said, we start giving permission to others to do it.

Katie McDonald: That's right. We liberate everyone else to bring their full selves to the table. And that's what we're looking for. Like, really, they're liberated full selves, their creative selves. This is, you know, we're amazing beings that we have stifled and silenced into and colluded with. Right into numbness. And, and that comes in the form of overdoing, overspending, overeating, over drinking, like, you know, the list of, you know, gambling. All these things, all these vices, so to speak, are really u. to silence the wisdom that has all the answers we’ve been looking for.

Michele: Right, right. So, Katie, if somebody is listening today and they want to just do one thing. Like, if they hear all of this wisdom from you and the conversation that we’ve had, and they think, you know what I just wanted today to do one thing to just try to start listening to myself, how can they start, you know, in the next little bit, just today, kind of checking in with themselves?

Katie McDonald: Yeah, I mean, I want to say the tea habit. It could be a coffee habit, but I do like the tea for all the other sensory pieces of it. But, even just interrupting the day, having a cup of tea and just sitting in silence, it could even be a cup of water. But the ritual, as you said, of preparing a cup of tea, we're talking about five minutes total. Like, can we not spend that five minutes doing that? If you can't do that, I would, I would ask you to start every day before you tune into the world, tune into yourself and ask, what do I need? Those are the two choices I’m giving them in case the tea thing doesn't work, or the but what do I need? And start opening the conversation with yourself so that your needs can be heard. Because they're legitimate, what you need is, is worthy of your attention.

Michele: I will say the one thing that I had to learn early on is when I asked the question, I couldn't say, okay, achiever Michele, you've asked the question. Now get up and go do something. You have to sit there and listen. So, I just want to add that in for anybody who's like, Michele, I was like, all right, asked, moving on. But we want to wait for the answer.

Katie McDonald: Very good point.

Michele: You're going to ask, wait for the answer, because it will come. It absolutely will come.

Katie McDonald: Yes, it will.

Michele: Well, Katie, thank you so much for our conversation today. I just like you having had some extreme health challenges that knocked me out for a while. It's what we don't want for everybody else. Like, you're going to run into your own problems. Right. But if we can stop that burnout and that even doing the things you love. That's what my cardiologist said to me. She's like, Michele, you didn't get into this overnight. You're not going to get out of it overnight. And the challenge is you love it. And so, we've got to find a way to balance what you love with the health of your body.

Katie McDonald: That's right. That's right.

Michele: And, you know, it's taken me a while to figure it out, and it keeps changing. So, I'm, you know, hello, menopause. So, I'm still always figuring it out. But that's okay.

Katie McDonald: Yeah. We don't have to have it all figured out. Like, no one has it all figured out. No one has it all together. But it is part of the journey. It’s that, you know, I really do believe we're on this planet to understand who we are, and then how can we best serve.

Michele: And it's a beautiful part of the journey.

Katie McDonald: It is. It is. If we could stop resisting it and lean into it. It's a joyful place.

Michele: It really is. Well, thank you for sparking joy back in the conversation of us figuring out who we are. And, Katie, if people want to connect with you, where can they find you?

Katie McDonald: They can find me www. bnourished.com and bnourished also on Linkedin.

Michele: Awesome. Well, we'll have all that in the show notes and I just want to thank you again and hope you have an amazing day.

Katie McDonald: Thank you for having me.

Michele: Katie, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. I love the self-curiosity that you suggest and have grown greatly from practicing some of these same concepts. My morning coffee and Bible study and gratitude journal really have helped me start off strong, and then finding time for movement has been a new add for me. I've always loved Pilates, but now I'm trying to be more intentional about, you know, weighted vest and all the things. Please check out Katie's work and reach out to her if you want guidance and accountability on being your best self.

If your needs are more aligned with now how to manage the company strategy to allow for some of these new self-care regimes. Please reach out and let me know how to help you. You can set up a discovery call at Scarletthreadconsulting.com. and we can talk about how to run your business with healthy boundaries that you have. And as always, the more that you care for yourself as a human being, the more profitable your life and your work will be. And remember, profit doesn’t happen by accident. Profit is a Choice is proud to be part of the designtwork.org where you can disc discover more design media reaching creative listeners. Thanks for listening and stay creative and business minded.