292: Hospitality is Profitable for Everyone

Michele: Hello, my name is Michele and you're listening to Profit is a Choice.

With me today is Rick Campos. He's a recovering interior designer, a podcast host, and a design business coach. Rick is certified in Coaching the Unreasonable Hospitality methodology. And we're going to be digging into how we can show up to be really hospitable and not just service oriented and understand the difference between the two. So, listen in for some great action items.

Every day, empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company, financial health, and enjoying the rewards of reduced stress and more creativity. With my background as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses in the interior design industry, educator and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line, and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to Profit is a Choice.

Hi, Rick. Welcome to the podcast.

Rick Campos: Hi Michele. It is so good to be here. Thank you for having me.

Michele: Oh, it's my pleasure. We were introduced by Stacey Randall, right?

Rick Campos: Yes. I love Stacey.

Michele: Same and she was so funny. She's like Michele, have you met Rick? I said, “I’ve wanted to”. I said, but I haven't met him. She's like well, when I was talking to him, I'm thinking, you need to know Michele. And so, then she connected us and, I'm appreciated that. So, shout out to Stacy. But Rick, before we jump in, we were going to have a conversation about unreasonable hospitality. And that is something that's very near and dear to your heart, something that you coach around and really feel inspired by. So, before we get to that, I would love to have everybody kind of hear a little bit of your story and what got you to where you are today.

Rick Campos: Sure, I'd be happy to share that. I guess it's kind of something I don't talk enough about. So, thank you for the opportunity.

My name is Rick Campos. I'm the host and founder of Design Business Survival Guide, which is a podcast, which is really a community platform for design professionals. It encompasses a podcast, one on one coaching, as well as learning and networking opportunities which we produce all over the country annually. But my backstory is I always say I'm a recovering interior designer. So, I say that jokingly but also in all seriousness because I like for my audience and the people that I engage with to know that I am and was one of them. So, I was an interior designer for 12 years. Six of those years I ran my own business. And then for another six years I partnered with another designer and helped him run his business. I came on board as an associate designer but ultimately became his director of business development. And that's kind of where I caught the bug, as far as the business side of design. I was able to explore the business side in depth, and I was really enamored by it. And so, I used that opportunity to just learn as much as I could about the back end and how to grow the business into a new market. And I really enjoyed it. But in that process, I kind of grew out of the creative side and was really kind of all about the business side. So, I began to identify my strengths and my weaknesses. One of those weaknesses was I just really wasn't great client facing when it came to the creative side. I really wanted to be in the office focusing on the business. That's what made me happy. I'm not going to say I was a bad designer. I think I was a pretty good designer. But my passion really was with the business. So, I had an opportunity to make a pivot, and I took that opportunity and left the client facing side, the creative side of design, and really focused on the business side. So, the podcast was the first step in having conversations with designers about the business of design, how to grow a better business, and really how to leverage community as a support system during that process. And then naturally coaching came after that. And then we started our Design Biz Retreat, which we do every year, and some one day power courses. And now fast forward, here we are. I consider myself a design community leader in the sense that I spend my days really just supporting the interior design community and helping designers grow a bigger and more profitable business.

Michele: Awesome. When did you start your podcast, Rick?

Rick Campos: I started my podcast seven years ago. We're just celebrating our seven year anniversary. Yeah. So, I started it in 2018.

Michele: Okay. Same. That's when we started ours as well.

Rick Campos: Right.

Michele: Yeah, that was a big year. There were a couple that came out that year, but mine was the same kind of way, trying to build community primarily around profitability, pricing, like some of those back office pieces that are so hard to kind of wrap your arms around because we're not just taking product and marking it up 30% and calling it a day. We're trying to price so many other things. So, I love that. I'm curious, what is it? And first of all, let me back up. I love that you love the business of the design. Like, I love that. And I have found in my coaching, which you probably have as well, I can usually tell if the client that I'm working with is more in love with design than they are with having a business that offers design. And I usually say that I'm good at working with business owners who offer design services.

Rick Campos: Yeah, there are designers who happen to be business owners, and there are business owners that happen to be designers. And I agree with you. It's always interesting to kind of determine who's who.

Michele: And the beautiful thing is you can learn both sides, right? So, it's not like once you're in one, you can't do the other. It's just which way are you coming? Are you coming more left brain logical or right brain creative? And then how do we close the gap for what you need to be successful? And closing the gap could be education and learning to do it or hiring somebody like you were hired to fulfill those needs of the business, because they still have to happen whether you like them or want to do them or not. Like, they're still needed.

Rick Campos: 100%. And I enjoyed it so much because there were so many talented designers in our firm. And so, I was like, listen, you've got enough talent here. You got enough creativity. I'd love to focus on the business side. So, it was such a great opportunity for me.

Michele: I was really curious about was, when did you start feeling like community was a big part of what you felt was important or in the expansion of your role in the industry? You know, where did you start building that community and thinking about community?

Rick Campos: I think community started on day one for me, when I launched my own business, because I came, designed as a second career for me. I come from an automotive background, so I had no contacts in interior design community whatsoever. And so, I really had to not only learn design, but I also had to learn the business of design. I had to develop a network of people to lean on and get information from. And immediately I felt like I was met with resistance. I didn't feel like there was a strong community that I could ask questions, and there wasn't a lot of support from a business perspective. So, I really had to go out and find that, I think when I partnered, with my colleague on the second six years of my design business, that's when I really realized how important community was. I think that's when I realized the impact that community has on the business of design, because that's when I was able to really establish strong relationships with fellow designers who were doing the same level of work that we were and have real conversations with them. So, I've always worked in the high end luxury market. And so, at the end of the day in our area, there's only a handful of designers that were doing what we were doing at that level. So, if we weren't getting the job, I can probably tell you who got it and it's going to be between one of four or five other designers. And so, we kind of had this cool network where we were all able to talk to each other very honestly about jobs that we were all bidding on and that sort of thing. And that's really when it clicked to me. Like, wow, if this community of five or four was a community of 50 or 500 or 5,000, there would be so much support out there for every designer. It'd be so incredible. So that's really when it clicked for me. And at that point when I realized, okay, there's something next for me, something bigger, it was community.

Michele: Did you. Well, it's funny when you talk about that and you go back, because there wasn't a lot of community back in the day. I know when I started my company in interiors, that would have been back in 2000, and there was very little. I mean, we were just starting to find things on the Internet, just starting to pull together community. I can remember, Rick, you'll laugh at this, but I guess it was probably about 2005, maybe. I went online into a workroom group that had designers and workrooms and drapery workrooms or whatever. And it was an online community. And I'd been in it for about two years, stalking and watching and answering questions and asking questions. And I went in and back in the day, you know, when we weren't as maybe secretive as we are now, everybody would put their location so I could see the town and the state that everybody lived in. So, I just went out, looked up every person in Georgia that was around me, I'm in the Atlanta area. I looked at all the surrounding counties. I just sent them all an email and invited them to my house. My husband's like, what are you doing? Like, Michele, the Internet is so new. You don't just get on there and invite random people to your house. And I was like but I need community. I need people. And I don't just want to be an online friend to somebody or connection, I need human people that I can talk to. And so, I think about 20 people came, and I had set up our basement in my workroom and all the things and I invited them in and gave them snacks and we just started building community just very organically, just coming together kind of like what you discussed and talking about things. And then a few years later it actually turned into The Window Covering Association of America in our area, where people started getting together instead of just at my house and my basement. But it is important that we meet. That's why so many associations and so many groups, even organically naturally formed, are important. Because doing all of this business by ourselves, having to reinvent the wheel over and over and over is slow, it's taxing, and it's not sustainable, but it's not necessary. And so being free to share information, I think is huge, so, kudos to you for recognizing, reaching out first in your community and then building it forward. Did you get a lot of resistance?

Rick Campos: I personally got a lot of resistance when I first started my business back in 2008. That’s what reinforced the need for community for me. I was personally getting resistance from designers in the area. Cause I was new and they're like, hey guy, hey kid, figure it out on your own.

Michele: We had to figure it out. So, you have got to figure it out kind of thing.

Rick Campos: It was very much that attitude. Yeah, for sure. but then I think, you know, when I started this platform, I was at that point, we're talking zero resistance, so, many people were ready to jump on a podcast and share information. By that time, everyone was beginning to realize, well, what I call our people, our people clearly realized that there was so much sense in community and supporting each other. There’s something to be said about being in a room of your colleagues and like you said, really kind of help, move, and keep this momentum going fast and furious. because without the support of everyone. You're right, it's just, it's not sustainable.

Michele: It's not. Did you get pushback because you'd come from automotive and maybe you hadn't had all the educational chops that maybe some of them did? Did you find that?

Rick Campos: Here's the funny thing. Despite my youthful appearance, it was a second career for me. I was in my 30s when I was doing this. I mean, I just turned 54. But everyone felt like I was this 20 year old kid that was trying to figure it out at the expense of others. They didn't understand that really, I had put in my time. I went to design school, I had a vision, I was very serious about my business and all I was trying to do was just kind of collaborating with other people and learn the business side of this design. But, yeah, I think it had a lot to do with someone showing up looking like he was in his early 20s, trying to look for shortcuts. And I get that know there are no shortcuts in this business. So, I think maybe that's where I got the most resistance. I think it had a lot to do with appearances, which is unfortunately reality in our world. and it's something that I take very seriously now in my business.

Michele: I've noticed a shift, though, haven't you? Like, with the advent of more like, it started with Facebook groups, and then it's moved more into all types of online collaborations and forums and now conferences and meetings and networking events. Have you noticed that as well? It's like people want more and more now, I believe, to collaborate. And let's be honest, at some point, there are some personal things that you keep personal. And collaboration doesn't mean you have to put every single thing out on the table for everybody to see. Like, you're still called to be wise and what you share and who you share it with. We're not getting rid of discernment here when you walk into one of these rooms, but finding your people that really have your back and really support you and can step in to even if it's just cheer you up or give you a resource or you know, just commiserate with you like that is just needed. I just don't even know that we can talk when we talk about profitability as a whole, I don't know that we can even put a number on that, Rick, because I hear so much of the loneliness when you are the one running the company. I know you've been in business a long time. You've heard it as well. It is very lonely in that CEO position quite often, especially in a firm where you're making the majority of the big decisions. Not to say you don't have teams and people that are supporting you and all, but there is a lot of heavy lifting and heavy weight that is sitting on your shoulders, and it feels burdensome at times. And so, to have a peer outside of your company who can look in or tell you what they've been through and share those experiences, and maybe I wish I had known this or, if I did it again, I would look at the, you know, just insight that maybe you haven't had is just worth its weight. I know my sons are both in commercial construction. I've shared that a thousand times. And one of the things that I think it was my oldest shared with me, and I thought about it because, you know, here I am raising my kids and now I'm watching them. They, my oldest is now 30, so I'm watching them in the workforce, and I watch them launch, in construction, which was, you know, an adjunct to what we were doing and putting him in that. And one of the things that he was told was, you cannot fast track experience. He's like, we can fast track you on so many other things. You can do all the education and fast track. You can study, but you cannot fast track experience. There are some things you have to learn by walking and going through it. And that's the thing that I always think about with community is I can't fast track your experience, but I can walk alongside you.

Rick Campos: Absolutely. Yeah. Because the community, I think, exposes you to more in a shorter period of time. So, if you're sitting in a room with 10 out of the designers, and if some of them have been in business 10 or 12 years longer than you have, or maybe even longer, just that couple of hours of storytelling and just the examples that you hear is so valuable. And going back to the isolation, like, listen, I get it. I just did an anniversary episode where it was a takeover and we were taking questions from people about me, and one of the questions was something the effect of, you know, what don't people know about you? And I think because I don't talk about it enough, I think people don't realize, you know, I get the isolation. You know, I launched that business in 2008. I also opened a retail studio as well, because that was my marketing strategy to penetrating the market. And I literally sat there alone six days a week for years because I was just trying to keep this thing above water. I didn't have the budget to hire someone, so I was doing it all. I get the isolation and it's very real. Community is so important.

Michele: So, when you decided that community was important and you built the podcast, you built your networking events, your one day events, and your coaching opportunities, what led you to the book and then to the methodology of Unreasonable Hospitality? I'll hold up the book for those of you that are watching this online. It's by Will Guidara. Is that how he says it?

Rick Campos: Yeah, it's like my favorite book ever. I'm a big reader, and I love every angle of a business. Anybody that's talking about business from any perspective, I'll listen. In fact, the more diverse, the better, because it's amazing how many parallels actually are relatable to our business, even though it's a completely different business. So, working in the high end luxury market, I always say that one of the things that I learned is that our clients were just ordinary people with extraordinary access to wealth. It was a very interesting market to work in. Very demanding, high budgets, high stakes, and it took me a while to really kind of get comfortable with it and understand what we were up against, because it was just so foreign to me. I did not come from money, especially not at that level. There was, like, no relatability whatsoever. But the moment I embrace that they really, truly are just ordinary people with extraordinary access to wealth is when I learned that they're human beings. They're sensitive, they're emotional, they're real people. I strongly believe that while our clients may not always remember everything that we said or did, they'll always remember how we made them feel. That's a quote from Maya Angelou that Will Guidara used in a documentary that I saw him in, and it really captured my attention. So, the way that I really kind of stumbled across Will Guidara and the book is by watching a documentary on Netflix called Seven Days Out, which documented the relaunch of Eleven Madison Park, which is a restaurant in New York City after being named the number one restaurant in the world. So, watching the symphony and the chaos of renovating a restaurant with such attention to detail and hospitality reminded me of interior design. So, they had just won number one restaurant in the world. And when they did that, they decided to shut down the restaurant and completely renovated it on this insane time schedule. And so, this documentary series actually documented that process. Watching them renovate this restaurant down to every single detail. There was one scene in particular where Will is sitting in the new banquettes that were just reupholstered in mohair, and he's obsessing over the prickliness of the fabric, and he's exaggerating it, which was a little annoying at first, but then it was like, no, this is how much attention to detail him, and his team are demonstrating. This is how important it is for them. It's not about if it’s prickly to him, it's about how the client may react to that and how it may impact that experience. And so as soon as that shift occurred, I was just completely like, I was into every second of that documentary. And then naturally, the book that followed just kind of reinforces that entire journey and the concept of hospitality that really drives him and his team and the success of that restaurant. And there were just so many parallels to design. I was hooked.

Michele: You know, what's so interesting is even when we do events and things over here or clients, I'm constantly thinking, how do we want them to feel when we start? How do I want them to feel at the end, and how do I want them to feel through? Right. So, we're managing not just their expectations, but their feelings and their emotions, as we go through. I mean, let's be real. If you want to make somebody angry and piss them off, you know how to do it. And if you want to make somebody happy and elated, for the most part, you know how to do it. And so, at the end of the day, it kind of comes down to what do we want? You made a comment too Rick, about looking at other industries, and I have always thought that that was super important because business is business. I mean, I know we all think we're special and that our business is special, but at the end of the day, business is business. And so being able to watch these other industries and draw parallels or see things and understand the relatability of what they did and what happened really is a big opportunity for growth. I'm curious, have you ever read this book, Secret Service by John DiJulius? You're going to love it, because here's the deal. Unreasonable Hospitality was born, if you will, out of Will's work in the restaurant industry. This one is out of the hair care industry, and it's secret service. Do you remember in the book Unreasonable Hospitality, he talks about removing the podium and that they got the reservation list and they went online and found the pictures of everybody that made reservations?

Rick Campos: Yeah, it’s one of the examples I was going to give today.

Michele: And then they speak to them by name. Well, in Secret Service, what they do is they realize who's the first time, who's coming back, and they change the color of the cape that they put on them. And then if the cape is, let's say, black, meaning it's the first time they've ever been there, everybody in the salon stops by to welcome them, say hello, and they treat them a different way, in a way that they want to continue, but they really are welcoming it's really like an unreasonable. So, I think it's an amazing adjunct to the work that you do and you might really appreciate that.

Rick Campos: I'm definitely going to read it because it's all about how you make people feel. And so that's a really good, that sounds like another great resource because I will tell you, you know, I was obsessed with the concept. I love the documentary, I love the book, I love Will. So, it's all I could talk about. But I will say it has been kind of a hard sell at first because every time listen, I've gifted that book at least 30 or 40 times. It's like on my Amazon list. It’s just non-stop. It's always going out to people because I think that it's so impactful. And a lot of people are like this is a book about a restaurant. I don't get it. And I'm like, take the food out of the equation. Take the restaurant out of the equation. Because, you know, it's not, you know what it's about. It's about the art of listening. It's about anticipating needs. It's about creating memorable moments and creating an extraordinary client experience. And if anybody can relate to that, designers can. Because ultimately that's our goal. Because, right now, design is simply not enough in this business. No, it has to be more. You have to be more.

Michele: You really do. One of the things that I thought was interesting and you'll see the parallels, in Secret Service they talk about like somebody is first of all they ask the question when people go to get and it’s hair care, right, so, when people go to get their hair done, why do they jump around stylists? Why is it that there's like a 20% retention rate? Because people are looking for where can I get the better deal. So, then they started realizing people were buying based on price. Well, we see that on the design side all the time. But then they were like, well, how do we increase what we're doing so it's not just about prices, it's about price and service. And then they started adding in into serving, which is really the so much more that it’s hard to compete against that unless you're putting all those same service ideas into place. But one of them is like somebody's sitting in the chair and they forgot to get a birthday present and somebody in the salon says, “I’ll run next door and get blah, blah, blah for you”. And they go out and bring it back and have it gift-wrapped. So that when they're done with their hair service, getting all their beauty stuff done, they've got this gift to walk out with. I mean, crazy ways of serving these people that keeps them coming back, but they build it in, you know, and it's just, it's amazing when you think about it. If not, it's almost like we're building businesses that are automatons. And Will made a comment, I guess it was Will who said it in the book. He said something like, “You feel great when you make other people feel good”. And what I noticed is when he said that it is not that you feel good when they feel great, but you feel great when they feel good. Meaning you get the greater reward when we are serving with the right heart and showing this hospitality. Have you seen that play out in, in the work that you do? Well, my gosh, you're putting on event after event. So, you're probably getting to take a lot of this, right. And put it into practice to see how it works for you.

Rick Campos: Absolutely. I think one of the biggest things that Will did is he really has created a new definition for hospitality, and he's helping us understand the difference between service and hospitality. Because service is the thing that you do, and hospitality truly is how you make people feel. And I've tested this theory. I wish that I had more opportunity to test it in design, but I will say, I'll give you an example of how I've used it in design. Maybe not knowingly, but most recently, the way that I tested this theory was during my last Design Biz Retreat. The focus really was on the client experience. And it was actually before I read this book and saw the documentary, but I was still focused on the client experience. And it was so simple. I did a simple intake form for everyone that attended. Kind of like what designers do when they bring on new clients. And it wasn't a hundred questions. It was like six simple questions. One of the questions was what is your fight song? What is the song that gets you fired up? What is the song that energizes you? And another question was like, what's your favorite snack? What's your favorite candy? Along with some other questions, totally reasonable questions that you would expect to answer if you're going to come to a two day retreat at a hotel. It just sounded like we were trying to take care of them. And this is an intake form that everyone filled out months before they came. Like they bought their tickets eight months before the event.

Michele: Which means they probably forgot all of their answers.

Rick Campos: Completely forgot that they even filled out the form. So, they show up and everyone in their swag bag has the candy of their preference that they liked. Rather it's Red Vines or M&Ms. I had someone from the UK who loves a candy I'd never heard of, but God bless Amazon. So, I was able to get that. And so, it wasn't until midday when everyone reached into their bag and started shuffling through the goods and said, oh, there's a snack in here, and it happens to be my favorite snack, that it clicked and they realized, oh, wow, something special is happening here. Like, everyone doesn't have this candy, only I have this candy, and it happens to be my favorite candy. And it's just because I asked a question, then I listened. You know? It wasn't until the second day that they realized that the playlist that was playing during break had all of their favorite songs on it. And it wasn't until the second day when someone was like, I love this song. Why is this song playing? I heard it yesterday too, and it's like, because you said you love this song, and now it's on the playlist along with everyone else's. So, I have tested the theory, and it does work because it means you're listening, and all of a sudden that evokes an emotion, a feeling, and that's what makes a true impact. It's what makes an ordinary moment extraordinary.

Michele: You know, I usually tell people, and I will preface this by my superpower is not sales. Like, I'm not a sales coach, okay? But I know enough to know what works really, really well, and I have tested it out, is when you find out how people want to feel, you make them feel that way. Right? So, for example, when you're using this same idea in a sales process, how do you want to feel in this room? How do you want to use this space? Then when you're presenting your ideas for the room, you tell them, and this will make you feel this, and this leads to that. Or you can be less on the nose and just kind of, you know, insinuate or intimate that how these things are connected, and they realize it themselves. Kind of like your participants all of a sudden realize, wait a minute, we don't all have the same candy, and why is my favorite song playing? And how did he know I like Diet Coke? Like, what is the deal here? Right? And then you start to recognize, oh, you did ask that question. Because I will say I've worked with plenty of people and plenty of customers who have said, I need a new designer, I need a new workroom, I need a new accountant, I need a new bookkeeper, I need a new fill in the blank. And my question a lot of times is tell me more. And you know what? I hear almost every single time in some way; they don't listen to me. I said ABC, and they heard XYZ. They said they heard me, but they did the opposite. Like, they're not listening to me. They don't know what I'm saying. They're missing me because they're not hearing me. And so, I love the idea of Unreasonable Hospitality, because it's really about listening.

Rick Campos: It really is. It's about listening and then leveraging that information and saving it for these special moments. Listen, going back to the restaurant example from a dining perspective, you have a very narrow window in which to have an impact on the people that are coming in and out of that restaurant. We, as designers, have months, sometimes years to gather information and create an experience and create and leverage moments. We have so many opportunities, and as designers, we learn so much about our clients, designers do. I mean, sometimes we learn a little more than we want to know about our clients. But it's those little things that you hear that you retain, that you document and that you take action on that really elevate the experience. I'm sure you remember the hot dog story in Unreasonable Hospitality, where a group of diners come in and they've gone to all the best restaurants in New York City, and this is their last stop before they hop on their flight back to LA and they're having this incredible experience. And they're talking and the waiter is listening to what they're saying, and the waiter overhears them saying, we ate here, we ate there, we ate here, at all the most amazing restaurants in New York. And one of them said, but the one thing we didn't have that I wish we did, is we missed out on the opportunity to have a street hot dog. Because when you're in New York, you have got to have a street hot dog. And they kind of laughed and they chuckled about it, and that was that. And so, the waiter took that opportunity to elevate the moment for them, and they activated their team. They went out to the street cart, they got a hot dog, dressed it up in the kitchen, much to the chef's dismay, and they served that hot dog between the caviar and the dry aged lavender duck course. And while it was very, like, not, five stars to the diners. It was like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you're doing this. Like, I can't believe you overheard that one tiny little thing and created this entire moment out of it. I guarantee you those people may not remember what they had for dinner at 11 Madison Park, but they've probably told that story a million times.

Michele: They remember the hot dog and the service that came with it, right?

Rick Campos: And how it made them feel. It made them feel heard, you know, and that’s the impact that we want to have. And it is so simple. I like to use that example because, listen, in the book they give a lot of examples. They go over the top. but I like using that example because it really doesn't cost a lot. That moment cost $3.50 probably. And from a designer perspective, from the business of design perspective, we have opportunities. And sometimes I don't want to rule out any designers to say, oh, I haven't been in business long enough, I don't make as much money to do these grand gestures. You can just be starting your business, and you can make these gestures for little to no money. And that's what I like to talk about when I coach on unreasonable hospitality.

Michele: I went through a phase where, you know, like when you're doing these long projects, Rick, that lasts months or years, everybody at some points gonna hit the wall in the design, right? And our goal is always that if there are two people involved, they just don't hit it at the same time. Like, we just cannot have partners hitting it at the same time. That's just not cool. But one of the things that we did was that we found out favorite restaurants. We found out if you like tea. Or, you know, what is your favorite wine? Or whatever. And part way, at different milestones, we might send them like some chamomile tea. Take a break. Or send them a Starbucks gift card. Hey, go have a coffee on us. I know we're waiting on ABC to come back in and for selections or I know that you've been without your kitchen for six weeks, here's a restaurant card. You can go out. So, finding those intersection and it doesn't all have to be food and drink related, but just saying find an intersection points and remembering those things so that you can kind of cultivate this idea that you're in it with them. I mean, at the end of the day, unreasonable hospitality is also saying, I see you, I hear you, and I'm walking alongside of you. And so, the way that we do that in the business is really important. It's not just, like you said, something we do to them or for them. It's literally, a walking along with you. Like, I'm walking along with you. And my gosh, I want you to have the best time in New York. And you didn't get a street hot dog, and I'm gonna go get you a street hot dog. How in the world could you leave New York? Yes, you're at a five star restaurant, but how in the world could you leave New York without a hot dog? Like, that's iconic. You’ve got to a have a hot dog.

Rick Campos: And for the record, it's a four star restaurant. In case Will’s listening, we realize it's four. I said five stars first. I was thinking about a hotel, which most people do when they talk about hospitality. But I totally agree. There are so many expensive ways to go over the top. Like, we could all just send our clients for a spa day if we can afford it. That's kind of the easy way out. But there are so many high impact low investment ways. For example, for designers, it's as simple as integrating a surprise feeding station in the kitchen island or a doggie den under the stairs for Fido because you recognize your client's love for their dog. You know, over time, we learn the importance of people's pets, and these are things that they may not even ask for that we can incorporate into the design. Whether they go for it or not, it still sends a message that we were listening. Oh, my gosh, you were listening. Even if you never said it.

Michele: Or we saw, we gathered. Yeah.

Rick Campos: Going back to the wine, you know, maybe it's a case of their favorite wine in the wine cellar with your compliments, but not just any wine. Maybe it's a wine from their native country of, let's say, Lebanon, to help make their first gathering in their new home with friends and family more special. So, it's not just any case of wine. It's not your favorite case of wine. It's a case of wine that's significant to them, that has meaning to them. And maybe it's as simple as gummy bears in the nightstand. Because the clients once share that her guilty pleasure of watching Real Housewives in bed on her iPad and snacking on gummy bears. It's these little things that you can remember and make a note of. And I mean, imagine when you're doing your installation and when you're doing your presentation, your big reveal, and your client is going, and they're looking at everything. They may not be opening every drawer, but later that night when they're laying in bed and they fire up their iPad and they open up that nightstand and there's gummy bears in there, like, that's impactful. It's fun and it's impactful. It reinforces to them that you heard them, that you listened to them and that how you make them feel is important.

Michele: So, if somebody is new to this idea and they want to start implementing it, how do they do this? Because I did notice in the book, he talks a little bit about some of the resistance, right? Until people can understand the why behind it. We talk about it all the time with Simon Sinek, and Understanding Your Why, there is a why behind this. The why is not just to be overindulgent. The why is certainly not to have an inauthentic way of doing things so that you can get something as it comes very much from a good authentic place. And so how is it that you, if a designer were to go back into her team and say, okay, you know, or he were to say, we're going to have unreasonable hospitality, and here are some of the things I'm thinking. What do you think? How have you seen people start to get others on board with it? Because you've even talked about some of the resistance as well, right?

Rick Campos: Oh, for sure, for sure. And the exercise that I use in my training, so, I offer a half day workshop and an online training seminar. It's primarily for teams, so I come to designers’ offices, and we work as a team, and we explore hospitality and how we can implement it into your design business. So, it's not just a one on one with the design principle or the ownership, but everyone in the office, because everyone is a player in this game. And the most important exercise that we do is called road mapping or the customer advantage map. And so really what that is that's a process of breaking down your design process step by step in a painfully detailed manner. So, we'll go through it once and say, let's start with the discovery call. You have the first point of contact with the client and let's go all the way to installation or post installation, your final point of contact and we'll break down every detail in between and then we'll go back, and we'll find the details in between those details and then we'll go back and find even more details. So that allows us to look at the big picture and identify opportunities to identify ordinary moments in the process and make them extraordinary. Because going back to the restaurant, the reason that they won number one restaurant in the world is not because they were obsessing over the food, while it was a priority, what they really focused on was the experience. And it's the same thing with the design business. You're already an incredible designer. We know that. Let's talk about the process and everything that happens during this process and identify opportunities to heighten those moments. So, for example, in the book at the restaurant, they use the example that you referenced earlier about when someone comes to the restaurant, there's no podium, there's no station, and whoever is checking in people for their meal that evening, they know who that person is before they even walk into the room, there's no list because they do their homework and there's a whole process that they used. So, think about it from a design perspective. That first initial contact, that discovery call, that is a touch point. And maybe it's something that we don't give a whole lot of attention to, but from a client perspective, that could be a very intimidating moment. That client can be anxious about having that conversation. Am I going to be judged about my budget? Am I going to be rejected? Like, I've never worked with the designer before, are they going to see that? Like, how am I going to be treated? That's kind of not a very warm and fuzzy moment from a client perspective, for us, we do it all day long and it's no big deal. So that's an example of where I would say let's fine tune that, let's magnify that process and let's create a way to make that more pleasurable for the client, whatever that may be. If it's a Zoom call, I don't know, make it, make it fun, make it a coffee date, make it a happy hour, whatever the case may be, do something to take the edge off of that moment for that client so that it feels better. Those are the moments that we focus on, that we drill into. Not the big moments that everyone else is paying attention to because everyone else is already doing it. It's those little moments that's going to set you apart.

Michele: You know, it's interesting, it's really about to your point, identifying those client touch points and then being very intentional in the touch point. Right. Not just showing up for yet another design meeting. Because for us, some of these meetings can become repetitive. Because we've just done them so much that we can almost just show up to do the work and step away. So, recognizing where the client touch points are and recognizing the likes and the wants and the desires of that individual client actually slows us down enough to make it an intentional meeting so that we can make sure we're touching all of the things that matter to them. Even if we're doing just the same, you know, repetitive type of work, it allows us to make it very unique because we are tailoring it to the person that we're talking to. What I think it also does is it keeps us engaged in that conversation. And so, when we show up, we show up with an excitement or with, you know, a level of concern or whatever the moment dictates, because we are in it with them. It's that traveling with them, you know. And I think that, if it's really authentic and it's done well, then I think it shows up as caring. And listen, when people buy, they're buying based on money, they're buying based on value, they're buying based on stress relief. They're buying based on a lot of different things, not just price. And these things, man, these things are hard to put price tags on. When somebody makes me feel amazing and they are kind to me and they're, you know, I'm not even going to say over the top. I'm going to say they are just in it with me. They are fully engaged, and the price is reasonable is within my customer tolerance. Right. The tolerance price that I'll pay. When they do those things, I'm going to buy based on relationship, because I want a relationship with that person. And it's not going to be that I'm looking for the cheapest. I'm looking for somebody to provide that level of hospitality and service along with the product that I'm buying.

Rick Campos: Absolutely. Because we always want to remind our clients that we are designing for them. So going back to your point about that, kind of, yes, we do kind of do the same thing over and over again. This repetitive consistency is very important for our business. It's what allows us to be efficient, to be profitable and all the important things. It allows us to continue to do what we love to do as designers. But we can't get too caught up in that. We have to constantly look for opportunities to make the experience special for every single client. Because while no one client is our only client, they like to feel like they are our only client, and we want them to feel that way. Even though we know it's not true and they know it as well, we always want to find opportunities to remind them that we are designing for them. And to your point, that we are there with them on that journey. And that journey, sometimes it's smooth sailing and sometimes it is a roller coaster. It's a really rocky road. And those are the times when you want to break that glass case with a tequila bottle in it in case of emergency. Or that's when you want to celebrate their investment by taking them to a cooking experience at your local Sub-Zero Wolf or Middleby showroom, which again, is such a perfect example of a really over the top experience that costs you nothing. So let me remind the listeners, leverage your resources when it comes to this, because as you begin to think about this and implement it in your business, you're gonna have all these grand ideas and listen, some of them are gonna be over the top. And you can go over the top from time to time. You reserve it for something special, and if the opportunity presents itself, do it. But there are so many ways that we can do this for not a lot of money, that has a huge impact. And one of those ways is leveraging our connections within the industry with our vendors who are there to support us and help elevate this experience for our clients.

Michele: I love that. Speaking of just like the numbers of it, right? One of the things that I thought was interesting and I can't remember, you might remember, but he talked about the 95% and the 5%. I think he was maybe talking about it with regard to time and maybe and resources in general. But 95% of, let's call it resources, time, money, whatever is kind of planned and structured. But they had a 5%, almost like money or a kitty that they could spend on their own. And I love that because it gave the power back to the team at large. Kind of like when you made the comment that when you go in, it's a team exercise. He gave the power back to the team so that every bit of it wasn't just driven by the restaurant owner or the designer or the business owner. You know, they're driving it for sure. They're building structure, even when it looks like there's no structure, There is structure to allow it to look like there's no structure. Right. But there's freedom in a 5% to read the room and make the decisions and do the things. Go ahead. What were you going to say?

Rick Campos: Yeah, because it's very easy to get carried away with this concept. It's very easy to go overboard and we want to be responsible. I mean, let's talk about profitability here. That is first and foremost, that's what we're here to talk about, at the end of the day. And that profitability allows us to be generous and do all these incredible things. So, in the book, he does reference that 5%. And so basically what he's saying is that 95% of the time you should be nose to the grindstone, focusing on profitability, looking at your numbers and understanding, not exceeding any budgets and all of these things. And because you're so driven in that regard, you do have that 5% cushion that you can just do whatever you want with. It could be a team experience, it could be a client experience, whatever that is. You have that luxury because you're so laser focused on the other 95% of the time on profitability, on revenue, on meeting your goals and projections and all of those things. And that 5% funds what he calls dream makers. So, when I said earlier, this is a team effort, this is something that everyone can do. And in their case at the restaurant, they had a small team of people, and this is all they did was they focused on these experiences, and they had this freedom because they had the budget for it. And I think that trickles down brilliantly to design businesses as well. You can implement that same concept in your design business and empower one or two people on your team to just do whatever they think is going to have that impact. It basically becomes a part of your brand at that point. But there is structure involved. So, you, you have to structure it and you have to implement it in your business in such a way to where it makes sense. It doesn't break the bank, because really, if done right, this creates a client for life. It actually generates more revenue, it creates brand loyalty, and with that comes profit.

Michele: Absolutely. And you know me over here as a Profit First kind of, waving that flag. The nice thing is you can build it into the business and it's not an accidental, oh, I got to go do something. These things are very thought out and planned for even within individual budgets. Like, if you're going to give somebody a gift card, you can build it into the budget that that's what you're going to do to be able to serve them well. And so, the more that we're thinking about, how do we want them to feel? How do we want to show up? What's within reason that we can do. I'll give you another good example of this. Have you heard of Banana Baseball.

Rick Campos: Banana baseball. I have not.

Michele: Okay, you've got to look up. They're called the Savannah Bananas. So, it is a baseball team. Jesse Cole is the owner. They're out of Savannah. They own a couple of them. They are reimagining baseball because they're realizing it's not just about baseball, but it's about families and how families feel and how people feel. You're going to love this one. So, you’ve got to go look up Savannah Bananas. For years, they had people who were buying tickets years in advance, they kept selling out. Well, they now have moved into baseball stadiums of colleges. Now they're moving into MLB baseball stadiums. And they're selling it out because their players are playing music and they're dancing. They've got like a cheer squad of grandmas. Like, it is like this whole family thing. But his comment was baseball, as we've all known it, has been America's pastime. But it had gotten so out of reach for the average family that they couldn't go and then you couldn't afford it. And so, they have things that are capped in pricing. It's. They play baseball, but there's just a lot of games. And when everybody leaves, their hearts are exploding. They're happy, they're gentle, everybody's getting along. It's just a big hype fest around baseball. Like, they're doing flips out, you know, on the diamond. They're just like, it's just amazing. Go look up Savannah Banana. baseball. But I met Jesse because when he bought into that and they named it, they had a whole plan where everybody in the town got to name the baseball team, that's how they came up with Savannah Bananas. But they were millions in debt, and he started doing Profit First to get them out of debt. And so, I met him years ago right as they were starting and the trajectory and the story, but it's about unreasonable hospitality. And he talks about how it makes you stand out. He wears a yellow tux. I think he has a book called Yellow Tux. But it's really about how you stand out and how you show up and how you serve people and how you hear their needs. Very, very similar to what you're saying. So, what I think is cool about this, Rick, is it showing up all over the place. We just aren't necessarily realizing that we can harness some of that and bring it into our design firms.

Rick Campos: Oh, for sure. And that's what I love so much about the program that I developed. So, basically, I became a certified Unreasonable Hospitality coach. I went through this training, I made this huge investment, so that I'm able to teach the concept, but it also allowed me to refine the process and make it specific to the business of interior design, which I couldn't do before. And so that really excites me, because it really does apply to every business, and I love sharing how it applies to the business of design. And going back to your point about just this excitement to tie this kind of up in a pretty bow. Yes, it's about how we're making our clients feel, but it's also a little bit about how we're making ourselves feel. Because going back to your point about making other people feel good makes us feel great. Imagine your team and how great they'll feel doing these little things or just knowing that they have the ability to really impact somebody's day and really make the moment really special for someone. We don't have a lot of opportunities like that in our day to day. If that's part of your job, what a treat, you know. So, it is kind of a full circle concept. It benefits the clients as much as it does us.

Michele: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Rick, tell everybody where you're hanging out online, if they want to hear and see and connect in some way.

Rick Campos: Oh, you know, you can find me on Instagram @designbizsurvivalguide. That's probably the best place to see what we're up to, what we're doing, where we're going to be, that sort of thing. And then at our website, designbizsurvivalguide.com. That’s where you can listen to episodes of the podcast if you're not like Apple Podcast or Spotify Savvy. And then you can also kind of have a look at all of the events that we're producing. We have our annual retreat that's coming up in October. We have a few seats left for that. We also have our second annual retreat that I'm co-producing in the UK this year in June. So that's just around the corner. Everything else, everything you want to know about us its 'online on the website.

Michele: Awesome. We'll have all of that in the show notes. And thank you so much for just inviting us into the idea that we can have unreasonable hospitality in our business and that it's profitable for the client, but also for us in a multitude of ways. Not even just money, but just in how we feel. So, I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.

Rick Campos: And thank you so much for having me, Michele. And kudos to you for doing this for so long. I know what seven years feels like. I'm right there with you. It is a labor of love, but it is so important. And I appreciate you for what you're doing and how you're inspiring the design community. And I appreciate the opportunity to be on your podcast. So, thank you so much.

Michele: Thank you, Rick. Rick, thank you so much for joining us today. Being service and hospitality focused is profitable for us and is profitable for our clients. Intentionality is the key. Being very authentic in the choices that we make. Make sure to check out Rick’s information at the Design Biz Survival Guide on Instagram.

And for those of you working towards creating a business strategy and financial strategy that align with each other, give me a call. Go to scarletthreatconsulting.com, fill out a discovery for and reach out. Profitability really is a choice, and it doesn't happen by accident.

Profit is a Choice is proud to be part of the designtwork.org where you can discover more design media reaching creative listeners. Thanks for listening and stay creative and business minded.